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Posted: 20 Mar 2016, 19:36
by seebart
More impressions, assumptions and likings (which I do not mind at all) that are not verifiable. Possibly we should have another go at just straight asking the source:
http://www.alps.com/e/common/inquiry.html
Posted: 20 Mar 2016, 19:37
by jacobolus
Chyros wrote: That might've been due to different factories. Do we know when the earliest AT101s were manufactured?
Up until 1988, Dell PCs were called “PC’s Limited”. E.g.
I think the earliest AT101’s with the “old Dell logo” must be from ~1990.
Can anyone tell what the keyboards are in the tiny pictures of this ad?
https://books.google.com/books?id=-j4EA ... 9&lpg=PA39
Here’s a better pic:
https://books.google.com/books?id=pMnJ2MkrjNgC&pg=PA110
So late 1988 / early 1989 looks like something other than an Alps-made AT101, though that pic is a bit too small for me to be very confident what the keyboard is.
Ads from late 1989:
I think that might be Key Tronic? It’s hard to tell.
Posted: 20 Mar 2016, 19:39
by seebart
Ugh nice find jacobolus! Not that I care for that signature on there.
Posted: 20 Mar 2016, 20:15
by jacobolus
seebart wrote: Ugh nice find jacobolus! Not that I care for that signature on there.
What’s amazing is that they have a computer in a case in a museum, and nobody noticed that the - keycap on the numpad is sideways.
Posted: 20 Mar 2016, 20:19
by seebart
jacobolus wrote: seebart wrote: Ugh nice find jacobolus! Not that I care for that signature on there.
What’s amazing is that they have a computer in a case in a museum, and nobody noticed that the - keycap on the numpad is sideways.
Including me!
jacobolus wrote: Can anyone tell what the keyboards are in the tiny pictures of this ad?
I'm sorry I cannot tell.
Posted: 20 Mar 2016, 21:05
by Chyros
seebart wrote: More impressions, assumptions and likings (which I do not mind at all) that are not verifiable. Possibly we should have another go at just straight asking the source:
http://www.alps.com/e/common/inquiry.html
Good idea actually, I once asked an employee something and it turned out he had actually worked in a factory before. I'll see if I can get into contact with him again.
@jacobulus: very nice find! The bottom pictures are definitely not AT101s, though. Salmon Alps were
definitely made before 1990, I have a board from 1989 and Mousefan claims there were ones from 1988, although he doesn't cite a source.
Posted: 20 Mar 2016, 21:38
by seebart
Chyros wrote: Good idea actually, I once asked an employee something and it turned out he had actually worked in a factory before. I'll see if I can get into contact with him again.
Hey that would be great, I never did get around to it. It's worth a try.
Posted: 20 Mar 2016, 21:50
by jacobolus
Chyros wrote: The bottom pictures are definitely not AT101s, though.
That was my point.
Salmon Alps were definitely made before 1990,
I never claimed otherwise, but only that I think Dell AT101s were first produced in ~1989–1990. My speculation is that the crossover point from tall->short switchplates was sometime in 1989.
I could believe that they started producing short-switchplate switches in 1988 sometime, with stocks of the tall switchplate switches lasting through early 1990 in some keyboards. Or maybe even both production lines running simultaneously for a while?
I have a board from 1989 and Mousefan claims there were ones from 1988, although he doesn't cite a source.
Links?
Posted: 20 Mar 2016, 21:59
by E3E
Chyros wrote: E3E wrote: I definitely agree with Daniel in that I feel like it's uncertain which came first, SKCM Salmon or SKCM Black. You see, it seems that the very lowest serial number AT101s came with doubleshot Alps Electric caps (and you rarely ever see those), and the one example with caps removed on TaoBao (with NO visible serial number) has pine SKCM Black. The other example of an AT101 with DS ABS was on eBay, and it had a serial number of 000060. Literally 60, and it was made in the USA.
The previous example was made in Japan and had no serial number.
So if that low serial number AT101 from the US has Alps SKCM Black, then it is very possible that black came first. It's just a little odd that they'd be used first, then jump to Salmon, and then jump back to SKCM Black.
That might've been due to different factories. Do we know when the earliest AT101s were manufactured?
Yeah, there's really too many uncertainties with trying to put the different switches into a giant timeline, haha, at least when it gets down to the wire like with SKCM Salmon vs SKCM Black.
The AT101 on eBay was made in the USA. The one on TaoBao was made in Japan. They both have the same style of FCC ID label, which is different from the more typical labels seen later.
It is an assumption, but I think that both are indeed early models. If only whoever bought the one on eBay would pop up here to verify whether or not it has SKCM Blacks or not.
Good indicator of DS being the legends on the num pad. Lots of variation there compared to dye subs. Arrow keys are also distinctive between the two.
We can't just assume that the low serial US-made AT101 also has blacks, but it does bear many similarities to the Japanese-made one.
Posted: 20 Mar 2016, 21:59
by seebart
jacobolus wrote: I have a board from 1989 and Mousefan claims there were ones from 1988, although he doesn't cite a source.
Links?
One of these? Not sure:
http://mousefan.telcontar.net/alpsk.htm
Posted: 20 Mar 2016, 22:09
by jacobolus
Not sure it adds much useful info, but the FCC ID GYI3PVAT101 was registered in early 1988.
https://fccid.io/GYI3PVAT101
Posted: 20 Mar 2016, 22:11
by jacobolus
That’s a salmon-switch board from 1991(?) – Not the same FCC ID as the above (this one has FCC ID application from 1990
https://fccid.io/GYIAT101-102).
Posted: 20 Mar 2016, 22:19
by seebart
Well there you go then we are one small step further.
Posted: 20 Mar 2016, 22:20
by jacobolus
Okay, I’m seeing the ebay listing:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/322040404995?orig_cvip=true
The keycaps there don’t look like standard Alps doubleshot legends, but that could just be an artifact of the terrible lighting and photo quality.
Here’s what 1990 AT101s look like:
http://web.archive.org/web/200410271638 ... 43197.html
Compare:
1989(?) (black?):
1990 (salmon):
1991 (salmon):
Posted: 20 Mar 2016, 22:26
by seebart
I would have bought that for 20 bucks!
Posted: 20 Mar 2016, 22:40
by E3E
I don't know. I just looked through my own DC-3014 caps and several other examples, and I can't see any real differences aside from the Green legends on some keys.
I have the caps on my KB101A atm because I don't like the Acer's stock caps.
This is the doubleshot version of the KB101, the KB101AS. It has scoops on the F and J keys, which is distinctive. I believe these are made by Alps though because of the similarities in legends.
They all seem similar to the AT101 if you ask me. The only difference I can see is in the green Alt keys and the Green sideprinting on the Print Screen key.
Posted: 21 Mar 2016, 16:01
by Chyros
jacobolus wrote: The story of ...
ivory -> black (less stiff?)
orange -> salmon (stiffer?)
(and then only black for "bamboo" switches)
... seems at least plausible.
Hmmm, not so sure about the weighting story here because orange is well-documented to be lighter than other tactile Alps switches.
I was under the vague impression that Alps made all their SKCL/SKCM switches in Japan, even for keyboards which were assembled elsewhere. I could be totally wrong about that though. And then SKBL/SKBM were made by Forward Electronics in Taiwan?
Uhhh I'd be quite surprised if Alps USA and Gold Star didn't manufacture their own switches Oo . There were some major Alps boards assembly plants in Taiwan, Malaysia, Thailand and China apparently, but whether they made the switches themselves I don't know. My own gut feeling, which tbh isn't based on any real evidence, is that bamboo blacks weren't even made by Alps themselves, but by Silitek. They're so different from other Alps switches, even pine blacks, that I can barely imagine they were made by the same people. Forward also branded their switches "Alps" of course, even though Alps didn't make them. But like I said that last point is just pure speculation.
Posted: 21 Mar 2016, 20:38
by jacobolus
Uhhh I'd be quite surprised if Alps USA and Gold Star didn't manufacture their own switches Oo. There were some major Alps boards assembly plants in Taiwan, Malaysia, Thailand and China apparently,
So up through the mid 1980s, where did Alps themselves produce keyboards?
I thought mostly Japan and some in the US. I thought all of the “Made in Taiwan” keyboards from the 80s with Alps switches inside were some other OEM (Tai Hao, Chicony, etc.). When did Forward Electronics start making Alps-branded keyboards? As for Malaysia/Thailand/China, I think that’s more in the mid-1990s and beyond. An awful lot of keyboards for desktops/luggables/etc. sold in the US in the late 80s were made in Japan.
I don’t think I have any Gold Star keyboards. If those are indeed the only source of linear switches with brown sliders, for example, then you are probably right that they were making their own switches. Gold Star was a separate company with some kind of partial ownership / partnership deal with Alps Japan, right? Through what timeframe were they making keyboards?
My own gut feeling, which tbh isn't based on any real evidence, is that bamboo blacks weren't even made by Alps themselves, but by Silitek. They're so different from other Alps switches, even pine blacks,
I don’t have any “bamboo” black or yellow switches, but the “bamboo” clicky white and damped white switches are also pretty different than their “pine” predecessors. The “bamboo” tactile green switches seem alright (I can’t really compare too well though, since the two tactile green Xerox keyboards I got were both in fairly scratchy condition.)
Maybe some or all of the “bamboo” switches were made by Forward Electronics (“Fuhua”/“Fukka”)?
Posted: 21 Mar 2016, 22:13
by E3E
Well, on both the pine and bamboo SKCM Green Docutech boards, the PCBs are made by Alps. I never checked my Silitek Dell AT101W to see if it's also Alps-branded, but I figured it might be noteworthy to mention that both variants of the Docutech have Alps PCBs.
I don't know about speculating that Alps manufactured switches all over. Goldstar Alps is probably one (Korea), Alps in Japan is definitely another. Perhaps Alps in the US too. Aside from Hirose, did Cherry have any manufacturing plants for switches outside of Germany?
I know you can't exactly relate that to whether or not Alps has, as I don't think we really can know for sure without some better evidence, but it does make me wonder.
I've never seen a bamboo SKCL yellow switch. Even on the bamboo SKCM Green Docutech, the yellow switch still has slits.
I honestly don't think that Silitek had anything to do with making bamboo switches at all. I'm not sure about Forward Electronics making the bamboo switches either (since those still have the contact plates that Salmon, White, Yellow, Black, etc have). I'd say that when they took over, they started with the simplified Alps design.
Posted: 25 Mar 2016, 04:13
by jacobolus
Chyros wrote: jacobolus wrote: The story of ...
ivory -> black (less stiff?)
orange -> salmon (stiffer?)
(and then only black for "bamboo" switches)
... seems at least plausible.
Hmmm, not so sure about the weighting story here because orange is well-documented to be lighter than other tactile Alps switches.
Okay, I’m now pretty convinced. I just tried a NeXT keyboard with ivory switches, and they feel roughly comparable to the Canon typewriter switches (it’s hard to be precisely sure, as they’re from a few years later, and both sets example switches I’ve tried are in somewhat rough scratchy shape).
Seeing how Apple went orange -> salmon whereas NeXT went ivory -> black, I’d be ready to make a simplified timeline like:
Code: Select all
| Linear: | Clicky: | Tactile:
_________|___________________|__________________|___________________________________
Pine: | green cream | blue amber | ivory orange brown
| yellow | white | black salmon lime cream
_________|___________________|__________________|___________________________________
Bamboo: | yellow | white | black lime white
This ignores locking switches, double-acting linear switches, one-off super-stiff switches, and whatever crazy thing Gold Star Alps was doing in Korea. The top row should also be spread out over time a bit, with linear switches starting a couple years ahead of clicky or tactile switches, and ivory predating orange by a bit. I also think the dampened switches might have not come out until a year or two after the other short-switchplate pine switches. The “lime” switches are enough different from brown switches that directly linking them is a slight stretch, but I’d call them conceptually similar.
Maybe we should actually use a 3-grade system, pine / bamboo / plum, where we split the switches with slits into long ("pine") and short ("bamboo") switchplate generations, and demote the no-slit switches to "plum" rank. That would probably be too confusing though. Just "gen 1", "gen 2", "gen 3" would be a reasonable shorthand IMO.
Posted: 25 Mar 2016, 11:03
by E3E
jacobolus wrote:
Code: Select all
| Linear: | Clicky: | Tactile:
_________|___________________|__________________|___________________________________
Pine: | green cream | blue amber | ivory orange brown
| yellow | white | black salmon lime cream
_________|___________________|__________________|___________________________________
Bamboo: | yellow | white | black lime white
[And everything else!]
Oh, so you've come to the conclusion that the Ivory switches in the NeXT boards are indeed the same between it and the Canon typewriters? Good to hear; I'm glad we don't have an ivory schism on our hands as that'd make things stupidly complicated.
I like the look of this timeline, but I just wanted to clarify that the designation of "pine" vs "bamboo" denotes whether the top housings have slits or no slits. There's currently no flavored words for short vs long switch plates, but I think long and short pretty much speak for themselves.
Very interesting to see your notes here, but I pretty much agree with what you've surmised.
The only strange anomaly that I've seen that doesn't seem to really fit anywhere is the SKCM Brown variant pictured earlier with a very standard-looking tactile leaf and symmetrical slider. I'm not sure what to think about that, but it seems VERY obscure.
Posted: 25 Mar 2016, 11:11
by jacobolus
E3E wrote: Oh, so you've come to the conclusion that the Ivory switches in the NeXT boards are indeed the same between it and the Canon typewriters? Good to hear; I'm glad we don't have an ivory schism on our hands as that'd make things stupidly complicated.
They’re not precisely the same (there’s a ~3 year gap between their production). But they have the same general concept.
Posted: 25 Mar 2016, 11:13
by E3E
jacobolus wrote: E3E wrote: Oh, so you've come to the conclusion that the Ivory switches in the NeXT boards are indeed the same between it and the Canon typewriters? Good to hear; I'm glad we don't have an ivory schism on our hands as that'd make things stupidly complicated.
They’re not precisely the same. But they have the same general concept.
So they're related closely enough in your mind to consider them the same line, it seems.
What's the main difference? Jacobolus, we need some photos!
Posted: 25 Mar 2016, 11:17
by jacobolus
The switches in the canon typewriters (and presumably the earliest blue switches as well, though I don’t have any from that early) have a more symmetrical top housing, and accordingly have a somewhat different shape to the tactile leaf. The NeXT keyboard switches have the same housing and slider shape as orange or (most?) blue Alps switches.
I can try to take a picture tomorrow.
Posted: 25 Mar 2016, 14:01
by Chyros
jacobolus wrote: Finally, seeing how Apple went orange -> salmon whereas NeXT went ivory -> black,
Oh NeXT keyboards came with black after ivory? Yeah that definitely helps, that's a good indication. If they're lighter than oranges I'm pretty sure Alps didn't group these switches by weight, because in that case oranges and ivory should be a pair and salmon and black, because the latter two are similarly weighted, and orange and ivory are both lighter, so if they'd be grouped by weight it'd be salmon->black and ivory->orange, but both pairs are contemporary to each other so that wouldn't make sense. Maybe the increase in stiffness over time is because of a difference in the leaf spring that came over time or something, or in the contact leaf or spring. Yellows are also well-known to be stiffer than greens. Brown and lime are a risky pair, but I guess lime could be considered a "spiritual successor" of sorts
.
Still not sure why Alps bothered to put out orange and salmon if they already had ivory and black, altogether they're not all that different I'd have thought. It's not like the differences other manufacturers put in their switches. I wish we could localise the production origin of the switches because maybe they were developed at different locations.
Posted: 25 Mar 2016, 21:42
by jacobolus
Okay, that’s what I get for not directly comparing back to back, and just relying on subjective memory. I think every time I looked at the ivory switches before, I must have been slightly mis-remembering what orange switches feel like.
Sorry for my inaccurate statements upthread.
I tried again, and weight of the specific switches I compared goes like:
orange < NeXT creamy switch < salmon ~= typewriter ivory switch < pine black ~= brown
The range from one end to the other is not very dramatic though. All of these switches are quite similar in feel (the brown Alps feel a bit different). If I walked up to 4–5 keyboards with different switch types, all in mint condition, I don’t know how easily I could identify which was which. I could certainly distinguish orange from pine black if handed just two keyboards, but the ones in the middle are pretty close.
The slider color of the typewriter and NeXT switches is a bit different. The typewriter switches are closer to neutral. Neither one is as yellow as the dampened tactile "cream" sliders.
Some of the difference in stiffness might also be down to age or wear. I should disassemble and take pictures and spring measurements of these. And probably try to look at a switches of each type from 2–3 different keyboards if possible, as there are probably some slight differences from batch to batch. I don’t have time today though.
Anyway, seems like my orange -> salmon, ivory -> black theory is a bit of a stretch.