Page 12 of 43
Posted: 08 Jun 2016, 17:46
by matt3o
better representation of the two profiles
we will 99% go with the one in foreground (beamspring-like). the other one is more SA-like.
to the upper right you see a color test for the modifier keys, alpha keys would be lighter.
Posted: 08 Jun 2016, 18:02
by Muirium
I'm in favour of whichever has the true Beamspring like scoops. SA is sadly flat compared to that.
Think deep dished DSA deep…
Then deeper! Much deeper!
Posted: 08 Jun 2016, 18:09
by matt3o
it's not much the scoop, but the profile and angle
Posted: 08 Jun 2016, 18:21
by snuci
Topre Hi-pros have deep scoops but a narrow key cap face so you are bound to hit one side or other when typing and that is painful after a while and certainly annoying. These look very good.
My colour preference is brilliant white because the white unpainted ones look a little better even in these latest pictures. Beige or greyish off-white always looks pre-discoloured and old but that's just my opinion.
These look awesome so afar.
Posted: 08 Jun 2016, 18:45
by Stabilized
snuci wrote: Topre Hi-pros have deep scoops but a narrow key cap face so you are bound to hit one side or other when typing and that is painful after a while and certainly annoying. These look very good.
I completely agree, I just can't get on with the Topre HiPro PBT keycaps even though I really wanted to like them.
Posted: 08 Jun 2016, 18:58
by Muirium
Sounds like we need these guys in Topre mount!
Posted: 08 Jun 2016, 22:22
by zslane
I agree with Mu on the scoops. Ideally they would be deep(er than SA) like Beamsprings.
I have to say, however, that the tallness (and angle) of the SA-style row 1 keycaps is kinda nice. They reach out towards your fingers nicely. The other profile seems less, well, "high" to me. (Looks at subject title)
Posted: 08 Jun 2016, 23:00
by Muirium
Yeah, I like row 1 SA's aggressive shape as well. What Matteo's up to is trying to recreate Beamspring's geometry, including the effect of angled switch stems. Here's a great diagram Halvar made and I linked on page 1 of this thread, when I first suggested Beamspring:
Apparently, SA is a bit of a mistake. Others can chime in with the details (I forget) but the gist of the story is that SA copies Beamspring / Selectric caps' overall shape, but gets the base geometry wrong. Something to do with a curved vs. straight backplate clash? So the super forward leaning rows you get top and bottom of SA are an exaggeration and an accident.
That said, I do still quite like it. But we can do better. Especially regarding scoops.
Posted: 09 Jun 2016, 05:34
by jacobolus
Matt3o: can you put those on a numpad or something that doesn’t have a stagger to it, or else remove the keyboard case and take a picture from a reasonable distance from the side? It’s hard to judge the shape from the picture you posted.
As a general rule, I’d recommend making the ASDF row keycaps as low as you think is possible within your aesthetic goals, making the ZXCV row keycaps about the same height but tilted forward on the tops, making the QWER row keycaps noticeably taller, making the 1234 row keycaps substantially taller, and making the F-row keycaps as tall as possible without toppling over.
I’m really sorry Signature Plastics no longer makes their DSS profile; I’d love to mix and match DSS and SA to get something like:
On the following image, the purple outline is DCS profile, green is row-shifted DCS (this works surprisingly well), and black is the super-aggressive profile I wish someone would make (image doesn’t show any F-key row shape per se):
Or if you want some existing keycaps to clone the shape of, these are pretty good:

Posted: 09 Jun 2016, 05:44
by jacobolus
Muirium wrote: Apparently, SA is a bit of a mistake. Others can chime in with the details (I forget) but the gist of the story is that SA copies Beamspring / Selectric caps' overall shape, but gets the base geometry wrong.
My geekhack thread,
“Hypothesis: SA is wrong when used on MX switches”
Posted: 09 Jun 2016, 09:07
by zslane
The thing is, we live in a world of flat backplates (raised to an angle that is partially determined by whether the back feet are deployed or not) and straight MX stems now. Which bygone manufacturing practice are we aiming to emulate? Curved backplates? Angled stems? Stepped rows? Some combination of these?
SA provides a gentle concave curvature on today's boards which is only "wrong" depending on which combination of past component geometries you believe is "best". When installed on a typical MX board like, say, a Filco, what historical keycap surface geometry will these new keycaps most closely resemble?
Posted: 09 Jun 2016, 10:18
by matt3o
there's something that needs to be fixed in the profile, we are already working on it
I agree with zslane that we have to keep modern keyboards in mind. I like what we have so far, and when you see it side by side with an SA it looks so much better!
Posted: 09 Jun 2016, 10:24
by andrewjoy
I think keeping it as close as possible to beamspring is the best option. Even if you have to modify it to work with straight MX stems.
Posted: 09 Jun 2016, 13:55
by Halvar
All modern cylindrical profiles like OEM, Cherry, DCS etc. are still stepped (in contrast to SA, which isn't when used on a modern keyboard).
From top to bottom: OEM, Cherry, SP DCS
In comparison, your new profile seems considerably less stepped if I'm not mistaken.
I'm using SA right now, and I would prefer it to be much more stepped.
Posted: 09 Jun 2016, 13:57
by Muirium
(Four names, but only three profiles i \n the diagram. I'm guessing you meant Signature Plastics DCS, rather than SA, which leans forward quite a bit on its top row.)
Posted: 09 Jun 2016, 13:59
by Halvar
You're right, sorry, I edited it. I'm sure jacobulus has better pictures of this, too, but I couldn't find them right now.
Posted: 09 Jun 2016, 22:45
by zslane
Are these going to be tall enough to be considered truly "high" profile? It's hard to tell from the photos. If the shortest keycap in the set is the same height as DSA, then something's wrong, I think.
Posted: 09 Jun 2016, 23:56
by matt3o
on the picture at the top of the page you can see the size difference with an OEM profile. definitely taller.
Re: Hi-Profile PBT Dye-sub (the time has come)
Posted: 29 Jun 2016, 15:32
by zabuza1997
Omg. I gotta say that this is really promising, matt3o. Monopoly sucks man!!!
Sent from my NX510J using Tapatalk
Posted: 29 Jun 2016, 16:50
by kbdfr
zabuza1997 wrote: Omg. I gotta say that this is really promising, matt3o. Monopoly sucks man!!!
Sent from my NX510J using Tapatalk
off-topic-f10/tapatalk-sig-spam-pisses- ... 13807.html
Re: Hi-Profile PBT Dye-sub (the time has come)
Posted: 29 Jun 2016, 16:54
by zabuza1997
Re: Hi-Profile PBT Dye-sub (the time has come)
Posted: 29 Jun 2016, 16:54
by zabuza1997
?Spam?
Really bro?
Since when commenting in a thread is branded as spamming?
Posted: 29 Jun 2016, 17:03
by seebart
It's specifically about using tapatalk.
Posted: 29 Jun 2016, 17:06
by kbdfr
zabuza1997 wrote:
?Spam?
Really bro?
Since when commenting in a thread is branded as spamming?
Not your post was spam, of course,
but your automatic tapatalk signature (which you seem to have disabled now, thanks).
Edit: ninja'd by seebart - who perhaps will want to edit his post

Posted: 29 Jun 2016, 17:30
by photekq
You could perhaps offer more explanation in the future kbdfr, instead of just linking to the thread; it can come off as a bit rude (or grumpy, you might even say) sometimes

Re: Hi-Profile PBT Dye-sub (the time has come)
Posted: 29 Jun 2016, 17:50
by zabuza1997
Alright. Thanks for your reminder, bros. I hate that sig, too

Posted: 29 Jun 2016, 18:01
by kbdfr
photekq wrote: You could perhaps offer more explanation in the future kbdfr, instead of just linking to the thread; it can come off as a bit rude (or grumpy, you might even say) sometimes

More explanation than a link to a thread with the title of the linked thread clearly appears?
off-topic-f10/tapatalk-sig-spam-pisses-me-off-t13807.html
Call me rude or grumpy, I don't mind
And while already being rude or grumpy,
zabuza1997: please don't call me "bro". I quite probably could be your grandfather

Posted: 29 Jun 2016, 18:10
by seebart
kbdfr wrote: Edit: ninja'd by seebart - who perhaps will want to edit his post

No, I don't think I will.
kbdfr wrote: Call me rude or grumpy, I don't mind
Grumpy yes, rude no.

Re: Hi-Profile PBT Dye-sub (the time has come)
Posted: 30 Jun 2016, 01:14
by romevi
kbdfr wrote:
Call me rude or grumpy, I don't mind
Hi, rude or grumpy.
Posted: 30 Jun 2016, 08:09
by kbdfr