deskthority

Findecanor wrote: 11 Nov 2022, 04:35

JBert wrote: 11 Nov 2022, 01:29 Talking about Cherry clones: has anybody been crazy enough to clone MX Clears?

I suppose you intended to be snarky, but I also don't know how ignorant you are: There are several options for "Ergo Clears" with lighter springs that lack the scratchiness and tight keycap mount of real Clear — but I've yet to find clones with the heavier springs.

There was some snark in there, but then I did mean what I say: I use MX Clears daily with their original heavy springs so that I don't start writing extra characters whenever I rest my fingers on the keyboard, and even then I might get repeated characters whenever I start to feel drowsy. I do know about Ergo Clears, but I like the OG ones better.

It makes sense that there aren't any / much clones when the switches themselves aren't that popular, then again one would think that if most parts like the stem molds are there that it shouldn't be too much trouble mixing up a fresh color batch and throwing in some spacebar springs. I'll just hope Cherry stays around a while longer then.

Muirium wrote: 11 Nov 2022, 10:11 Crrrreak. There's upsetting to an impossible "audiophile" and then there's downright BAD with a capital SHUFF SHUFF SHUFF.

Are any of the Chinese MX manufacturers going after Ergo Clears? I mean are any of them targeting deep tactility without a click? I can't follow these things because their choice of product names make me roll my eyes so much I get nauseous. And I’m only half kidding.

Yes. Some manufacturers aimed for Ergo Clears outright:

-OUTEMU Sky [the early stems were closer to MX Clear, then they diverged ~2.1 I think]

(This switch is basically a Clear stem with a 62 G spring inside a tactile housing. But that housing is very outdated now.)

-Zealio V1 was one of the first custom switches, and they were trying to make a factory Ergo Clear. It's not quite an MX Clear stem, though. Being Gateron, the tactile 'bump' may be a little lower. They are much smoother but higher-pitched than Ergo Clears.

They are back as Zealio V1 Redux. On sale during this BF weekend, I think.

-Naevy switches, e.g. Naevy 1.5. These are meant to be directly factory Ergo Clears. Clear-like stem, moderate tactility housing. Springs 57-58 G or so. They are actually quite nice, and usable from the factory. Best with hi-profile keycaps.

Naevy 2.0 is said to be more tactile, don't know what they're like.

-Durock Ceruleans and Penguins are marketed as being like Ergo Clears. They are comparable in their level of tactility, but the stem shape is different.

-Kailh and Hako made some BOX-based switches meant to resemble Ergo Clears, Hako Violet being one of the more prominent.


Then there are some switches that may not be Ergo Clears, but are comparable. Kailh Pro Purple was an early one. Like a heavier Brown, with actuation closer to the top. So it's not exactly an Ergo Clear, but it is scratchy (unlubed) like a Cherry switch. Takes well to aftermarket springs, like MX Clears. I think OUTEMU Purple was also supposed to be an Ergo Clear.

Gateron CAP Brown V2 switches are cheap, and feel like light Ergo Clears. They're factory-lubed, so plug-and-play.

------------------------------------------------------------

But I think your real question may be - is anyone making MX switches that are intended to be more tactile than MX Brown. Something 'medium-tactility' or even heavy tactility. Not necessarily shaped like a Clear stem, but a more serious tactile.

In which case, yes, there are too many to list. Zealio V2, Holy Pandas and Bobas, Durock T1, and U4T are just some of the more popular ones. T1s are really cheap in their off-brand JWICK T1 form. A TKL's worth for $25, shipped, during AliExpress sales. So, easy to try out. [Feker Pandas are also very cheap during sales, but may not be quite as good as real Holy Pandas.]

Someone asked if it is worth switching from T1/Holy Panda or something to U4T. If you already have a keyboard with the former, then maybe not. U4T is superior in some respects [smoother, not 'requiring' lube, greater stability, less wobble, 'D-shaped' bump]. But it would make more sense to consider if you were building a new keyboard, rather than replacing an existing decent one.

Look, I wrote a rough history of custom MX tactiles here:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=11 ... msg3143439


After the clone switches, what you can call 'MX-compatible' tactiles started with Ergo Clear attempts [Zealio V1 and OUTEMU Sky, for instance] and Kailh's lineup, and moved into heavier tactiles with the success of Holy Pandas.

The year before and entering the pandemic was dominated by these heavy tactiles, Zealio V2 following soon-after.

This went on for a while, T1s being created to get in on this action.

Then, after some time of heavy-tactile predominance, you see a resurgence in light and medium-tactiles. This is where some of the latest Ergo Clear attempts come from, for instance. Light tactiles [better Browns] are sneaking in, too.


I know this whole discussion is kind of ridiculous, for many reasons, one of them being I am discussing "MX Tactiles," which is almost an oxymoron. Most of them use variations of the simple 'notch' method of diverting the stem from a linear path. We all know that Topre, ALPS, etc... are much richer.

After experimenting in this area since 2018, my conclusion is that "light tactiles" are a good concept - they are very ergonomic. They give some degree of (often nearly-subconscious) tactile feedback, while reducing strain on joints, and reducing the force at bottom-out. They have advantages, thusly, over linears and heavy-tactiles.

MX Browns get a bad rap because of the way they are manufactured (scratchy, wobbly, pingy), and the way they are marketed (as "tactiles.") But imagine if they were manufactured and marketed correctly. That's what some of the more modern light-tactiles like Durock Light Tactile and Blueberry Chiffon try to do. Naevies, too.

Anyway, there are really good options now if you are looking for improvements to Browns and Ergo Clears in the MX-compatible world today.

JBert wrote: 18 Nov 2022, 13:56

Findecanor wrote: 11 Nov 2022, 04:35

JBert wrote: 11 Nov 2022, 01:29 Talking about Cherry clones: has anybody been crazy enough to clone MX Clears?

I suppose you intended to be snarky, but I also don't know how ignorant you are: There are several options for "Ergo Clears" with lighter springs that lack the scratchiness and tight keycap mount of real Clear — but I've yet to find clones with the heavier springs.

There was some snark in there, but then I did mean what I say: I use MX Clears daily with their original heavy springs so that I don't start writing extra characters whenever I rest my fingers on the keyboard, and even then I might get repeated characters whenever I start to feel drowsy. I do know about Ergo Clears, but I like the OG ones better.

It makes sense that there aren't any / much clones when the switches themselves aren't that popular, then again one would think that if most parts like the stem molds are there that it shouldn't be too much trouble mixing up a fresh color batch and throwing in some spacebar springs. I'll just hope Cherry stays around a while longer then.

As for Ergo Clear clones with heavier springs, you can order the Zealio V1 Redux in 67 G.

Naevy 2.0 may come in a heavier weight than previous, I'm not sure.

SP Star makes some tactiles that are about as intense as Ergo Clears, like Magic Girl. I think it comes at 67 G.

These 67 G weights are very common in the MX tactiles that are somewhat more tactile than Ergo Clears. Such as T1s and U4T [68 G]. I think that accidental keypress is unlikely at 67-68 G.


The original Halo True switch [which became part of the first Holy Pandas] was meant to be a medium-tactile like MX Clear. Where most of the resistance came from the spring. I think it's a progressive-styled spring, increasing in weight towards the bottom.

At least, that was the intention. So you could type on something more tactile than MX Brown, without easily actuating it or bottoming-out. Some people like to type on stock Halo Trues.

Cherry will likely be using at least middle-weight springs in their official factory Ergo Clears. Maybe they'll just throw MX Black springs in there.

Findecanor wrote: 11 Nov 2022, 10:16

Muirium wrote: 11 Nov 2022, 10:11Are any of the Chinese MX manufacturers going after Ergo Clears?

The official "Cherry MX Ergo Clears" is Cherry playing catch-up to the clone-manufacturers, many years late. Of course they don't mention the competition in their marketing.

Muirium wrote: 11 Nov 2022, 10:11 I can't follow these things because their choice of product names make me roll my eyes so much I get nauseous.

Not to mention that several large enthusiast-stores are ordering the same switch from the clone manufacturers with different colours/transparency/lube and slapping on yet another cringe-inducing name for their switch.

Careful now. You want us banned in China?

If I had the money or know how I would release a line of MX clones with the sole purpose to make fun of the whole Animal + Adjectives and this trend for "poppy" or "thocky" light switch feel. Have some switches named after infamous historical figures and have the switches not use any spring lighter than 80g. I can see it before my eyes now:

Bloody Mary's, Calm Khan's, Terrible Ivan's, Honey Hun's, Easy Caesar's, ect

One of the things I don't think I've seen covered yet having scanned the last three pages rather hastily is the choice of keycaps; which is what ultimately drew me to using MX, as the choice is largely "MX or GTFO". And I'm kinda of my time, which is before the IBM PC really took root with its approach of "let's put the letters in the corner, and make the keytops cylindrical, and any colour as long as it's beige"; so while the keyboards might've felt awesome from the outset (I still remember one of the computer rags reviewing the PC in ~1983 and gushing that it's keyboard is "even better than the BBC's... but just the keyboard costs half as much as a complete Model B") I didn't care for the look and I'm still obsessed with finding keycaps that are sculpted, spherical and have nice, big, centred glyphs. And typically light-on-dark which ideally means double-shot. AFAICT that rules out nearly everything but MX; I mean model M/F comes with sculpting built in thanks to its design but the caps are basic and a bit flimsy-feeling.

Having a hefty cap perched on the stem does change the dynamic of the keys quite a bit. Probably not in any way that's measurable, they're certainly not heavy enough to affect the spring tension or responsiveness but the alterations in resonance (especially when bottoming out... yeah, I'm not the lightest-fingered typist) make for a noticeable difference. So that's the reason I've stuck with MX in spite of not being initially taken in: as I was coming from Model M territory I made the mistake of thinking the MX blue would be the natural choice but it isn't really.

I don't have a huge amount of experience elsewhere, at least not that I can document usefully. Of my early '80s computers there was the Dragon and BBC (actually the latter didn't come until years later but they were ubiquitous in schools so I still used them a fair bit) which I'm putting alongside each other because I remember the snobby computing journos going on about the BBC having the best keyboard ever and the Dragon the worst of the "real keys" ones; but playing with them in recent years one next to the other there's literally no difference at all between the BBC's Futabas and Dragon's Hi-Teks: they sound and feel exactly the same. For me, the BBC wins out in terms of having a more useful layout, mostly thanks to more keys: the Dragon was more minimalist with its 51(? I think) key TRS80-style arrangement. And the keycaps themselves: the Dragon's double-shots were heavier and "nicer", though I preferred the BBC's profile: Dragon was a stepped almost G20 layout and the edges of the flattish key-tops were a bit harsh as well as being untextured and shiny; BBC was more like a DCS profile and the edges more rounded off and textured. So even then keycaps made a difference.

There were probably all sorts of other interesting things I encountered but which I have no idea about. The PET was similar to the Dragon in profile but the keys felt damped; may have been the switch, may have been actual damping, I dunno. The VIC-20 and Commode 64 even more so, and while I liked the SA-type profiles and spherical tops I was less keen on the rubbery-feeling bottom-out. And there was of course the ZX81, Spectrum, Oric etc but the less said about their keyboards the better.

After that, the Electron was probably the only thing of interest outside of bigger computing. I preferred its keys to the BBC's but have read enough complaints about them not being durable. But the Electron had other problems with mine being quite poorly and now powers off again after a few seconds. Probably a duff capacitor or something.

Bigger computing came at college. Still in the mechanical switch years but a huge range of different types, overall build quality and overall state of knackeredness. More TVIs, ADMs, VKs and assorted VT100 clones than you could shake a stick at. None really left much of an impression other than the VK's rather charming chirrup when it beeped. The only one that stood out in that era was the mini I used during factory work over the holidays which was an IBM System/36 or /38 or something awful like that but it was the first (and only) beam-spring keyboard I've encountered; and it was awesome. I had no idea that it would become considered to be any sort of special, not least as it was ugly and very heavy, and the clunker was a bit take-it-or-leave-it depending on how hungover I was. The layout itself was the same as the original PC's insane arrangement (both dating from some IBM WP in the late '70s IIRC) but it was an absolute joy to use.

Then came 1989, my first professional job and The Rubber Dome Years. Meh. I suppose the LK201 sums up the better end of that and it probably represents the best rubber domes I've (knowingly) used. The keys were at least consistent and it was reliable. Not sure if it's significant but rather than using a single sheet, DEC chose to break it down into groups of half a dozen or so. They're actually okay: not great, not terrible. I think some of the other keyboards of the day may have still used mechanical switches but they felt mushy and had awful keycap design, everything I disliked about the Dragon's but in that "needs Retrobriting from new" beige that was popular at the time.

Mid '90s brought a couple of points of interest: one was NCD X-terminals. They came with PS/2-style keyboards with I think some sort of Cherry mechanical switch, but it was hard to give an opinion about the switches when the keyboards themselves were so awful: acres of flat, thin, beige plastic that constantly creaked and groaned under even normal use. They were hateful things. And a Dell Optiplex, which is my first encounter with a Model M: it was love at first clatter, though it was a while before I knew why.

Late '90s brought the cheap rubber dome years which were really just bloody awful. I went through several iterations before realising they were all shit and I needed to look elsewhere, which is when I found out about mechanical keyboards; well, eventually, I probably endured about 10 years of it before realising it wasn't getting any better. By that time the decision seemed to be "Cherry or Unicomp, take your pick" so I went down the Unicomp route and bagged myself a couple of SSKs. This was before the craze for TKL had taken off so I got them at clearance prices pretty much. Other than the beige and lack of custom keycaps they remain my favourite. I've since branched out into a Model F to see what the fuss is about (PC/XT layout, of course, the AT version that briefly existed between them and the PS/2 is extremely rare) and while it was nice there wasn't really enough of a difference between it and the SSKs to justify that much interest. My only real gripe about the M (and F too) is they're slightly heavy for my taste, but I'm also that person who considers MX reds to be slightly too heavy. The M certainly doesn't have the monster "85g or more" actuation I've seen mentioned and probably sits somewhere between the MX reds & blacks that I've used. Newer (as in c. 10 years or so back) Unicomps have a slightly lighter feel but the build is too flimsy and they really need to use (much) thicker plastic on their cases; not as bad as those NCD-sourced keyboards but too far in that direction. But I spilt a drink on my Unicomp M and now half the keys don't work.

So here I am today, with my choice of MX and clones, vintage M/F, Unicomp M and custom project M/F (and beamspring!) As I have the best of the available Ms (IMHO the SSK is good enough without me ruining them with a cack-handed attempt at bolt-modding) that's narrowed it down to the MX with their fancy caps, though I've noticed I have to be quick if I want something nice with a UK/ISO layout.

What I haven't tried in my long and rambling journey: Alps (well I probably have, but not knowingly) of any sort, so I really can't comment about them at all; for such a wide range of apparently commonplace keys, they've seemed oddly elusive. And Topre, but they're expensive and there's no guarantee I'd like them judging by my reaction to the Commodore and LK keys, plus I'd find the layout to be a challenge as I really don't adapt well to anything that's not a standard UK ISO TKL, maybe 75% at a push.

Things I've seen and not tried: Telex keyboards, whose funny little round cylinders have an odd charm of their own; and ICL 2900 terminals: no idea what the keys are like but they come in some glorious colour combinations, especially the green keypad. Apparently users loved them for their well-thought-out editing keys.

Blimey, that was long and slightly aimless. TL;DR: Cherry MX because stems, it's the keycaps innit etc.