deskthority

I posted this at geekhack, but might as well stick it here too:

Canon typewriter switch on the right, NeXT keyboard switch on the left (the type with no logo and a tall white switchplate, but the ones with logos and the ones with gray switchplate plastic are otherwise pretty much identical). I added an extra bright pic of the inside of the top housing at the bottom so you can see how the typewriter switch has a completely symmetrical top housing, unlike later SKCM switches. Notice the different shaped tactile leaves, and different springs.

The two slider colors look slightly different from each-other in person, though they’re not too different.

Personally I’d recommend renaming the Deskthority wiki page for both of these switches to “Alps SKCM Ivory”.

I believe the top housings for the typewriter switches here and SKCM brown switches are the same, though it’s been a while since I took apart a brown switch, so I could be misremembering.

Very good information jacobolus, I have not seen these Canon typewriter “Alps SKCM Ivory” before.

Wait, the typewriter switch isn't clicky is it?

No, it is not clicky. Both of these switches feel pretty similar to salmon switches overall. The force curve on these typewriter switches is probably not precisely like later tactile Alps switches, but I haven’t directly measured and plotted them.

jacobolus wrote: No, it is not clicky.

That's quite interesting, because the typewriter switch doesn't have the retaining tabs that all the other tactile Alps have Oo . I guess it's because the bottom tab is bigger?

Does it sound any different? Any trace of a click sound?

I got some undamped cream switches from a canon typewriter as well and mine sure have the retaining tabs, I click modded one just yesterday.

Another exotic Alps switch this week:

Interesting video. When I had an IBM 5576 with Alps plate spring, I did not notice the squeakiness that is present on the P70. I think the sound might be a result of the especially flimsy case.

Blaise170 wrote: Interesting video. When I had an IBM 5576 with Alps plate spring, I did not notice the squeakiness that is present on the P70. I think the sound might be a result of the especially flimsy case.

Oh, the squeak is 100% the case. I've been told the 5576 is built much more solidly.

jacobolus wrote: No, it is not clicky. Both of these switches feel pretty similar to salmon switches overall. The force curve on these typewriter switches is probably not precisely like later tactile Alps switches, but I haven’t directly measured and plotted them.

It's interesting that the tactile leaves do not have the same bottom and top tabs (to stop the leaf from bending in and recoiling to produce a click), but instead have an elongated tab which seems to be enough to stop it from clicking.

Chyros wrote: I guess it's because the bottom tab is bigger?

I think it also has to do with the top housing shape.

Chyros: the best way to take the P70 keyboard apart is to just break all the plastic. The case is shit anyway, so there’s not much loss. You can then see how it’s not pure plastic holding everything together: there are also a couple of metal strips which provide a bit of rigidity lengthwise (though as you noted, do absolutely nothing to resist twisting). Finally, if you want something to swear at, try desoldering some of the switches. Each switch has 4 leads bent down flat against the circuit board’s pads; even with some practice and fancy tools, they still each take about 4x longer to desolder than an SKCM switch.

Note that when the plate spring snaps downward, you suddenly get a bit of extra slack in the coil spring, so the overall downstroke force curve is a bit of a sawtooth kind of shape, which is different from what you get with most other types of switches. You also get a big snap on the upstroke when the plate spring pops back to its original shape. (I was hoping you’d try to push the coil spring on top of your demo jar top.)

As for the keycaps, did you note the nice thick homing bar caps, and nice thick larger caps? It’s only the 1u caps and Alt/Ctrl caps which are ridiculously thin.

Have you tried measuring your typing speed / accuracy on this keyboard, or others? I find that while it’s not my favorite sound or tactile experience (they’re nice, but e.g. Model Fs seem more satisfying somehow), Alps plate spring is pretty much the fastest and most accurate keyswitch I’ve tried typing on. I think it’s a combination of nice medium stiffness, crisp tactile drop with associated sound, reliable actuation after the click, and the bounce on the upstroke.

One last note, I’m not sure these switches are as robust at retaining their original feel as some other types of switches. The plate spring seems like it can get worn out on some examples I’ve seen, though that might be from improper storage with the keys held down for years at a time. I don’t know how well they hold up to e.g. 5+ years of regular heavy typing. Worn out leaf springs can sometimes be restored by careful manual bending, but it’s hard to do with perfect consistency and there’s a chance of screwing up and wrecking it.

I’d love to see someone try to do a modern-day remake of these switches. All the patents are expired, and the switch construction is relatively simple and should be cheap at mass scale, though there are a decent number of tiny plastic pieces inside.

Just got this Hyundai branded KB-5181, mainly for sentimental reasons


What's weird to me is that apart from numpad zero and plus keycaps, all the other keycaps, including spacebar, are not yellowed (or at least not yellowed as the keyboard). They are lasered ABS right? I don't have much experience with vintage ABS keycaps, the only ones I have are spacebars on my Apple boards, and they were yellowed to same degree as their accompanying cases, so I'm a bit confused by this.

I have gotten several old Alps boards where perhaps a dozen keys (randomly distributed) were heavily yellowed while most of the rest were nice.

Replaced the horrible Alps clones in my Acme KB-108 with Matias Linears and I quite like it now. I left the green linear Alps clones for the LED keys, but the cream clicky ones were way too hard to press.

"Acme KB-101"

What's wrong with that? The name? I found this one that someone else owns btw:

Nothing "wrong" with it, it's just a funny name, I expect it's the keyboard Wile E. Coyote would use .

Only quality Alps clones!

Chyros wrote: Nothing "wrong" with it, it's just a funny name, I expect it's the keyboard Wile E. Coyote would use .

"Acme" was an excellent and highly respected word until 1950s cartoons ridiculed it.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/acme

Much appreciation here for my M0118 with Alps SKCM Salmon. Thanks to Nuum.

Yeah, my other one with Salmon Alps also feels amazing, apart from the stiff spacebar. I like the layout quite a bit as well.

Nuum wrote: Yeah, my other one with Salmon Alps also feels amazing, apart from the stiff spacebar. I like the layout quite a bit as well.

Stiff spacebar? My Apple M0116 uses Orange Alps for every single key except Caps Lock, which uses Alps SKCL Lock. Maybe it feels stiff because of the very odd placement for the spacebar switch. It's moved all the way to the right for some reason, which makes it feel awkward when you're pressing the spacebar on the far left side (although I use the spacebar strictly with my right thumb so it's not an issue for me)

@Chyros and emdude: Thanks for the Acme humor! This brought back fond memories of the classic Road Runner cartoons.

keycap wrote:

Nuum wrote: Yeah, my other one with Salmon Alps also feels amazing, apart from the stiff spacebar. I like the layout quite a bit as well.

Stiff spacebar? My Apple M0116 uses Orange Alps for every single key except Caps Lock, which uses Alps SKCL Lock. Maybe it feels stiff because of the very odd placement for the spacebar switch. It's moved all the way to the right for some reason, which makes it feel awkward when you're pressing the spacebar on the far left side (although I use the spacebar strictly with my right thumb so it's not an issue for me)

Yes the placement of the spacebar switch is strange, it feels fine on mine here regardless of where I hit the spacebar. I do have the same problem on the tiny ISO return key when I hit it at the bottom of the keycap. The ISO return key is as ridiculous on the M0118 as it is on my M0110. Great keyboard otherwise.

Some (most? all?) of the salmon Alps Apple keyboards use a stiffer spring (still a salmon colored slider though) in the spacebar switch.

keycap wrote:

Nuum wrote: Yeah, my other one with Salmon Alps also feels amazing, apart from the stiff spacebar. I like the layout quite a bit as well.

Stiff spacebar? My Apple M0116 uses Orange Alps for every single key except Caps Lock, which uses Alps SKCL Lock. Maybe it feels stiff because of the very odd placement for the spacebar switch. It's moved all the way to the right for some reason, which makes it feel awkward when you're pressing the spacebar on the far left side (although I use the spacebar strictly with my right thumb so it's not an issue for me)

Perhaps a quick cleaning of the space bar might help, if you haven't already tried it. My M0116 with SKCM Salmons also had a gummy space bar (if you pressed it on the far right it would sometimes just stick), but cleaning it fixed the issue.

jacobolus wrote: Some (most? all?) of the salmon Alps Apple keyboards use a stiffer spring (still a salmon colored slider though) in the spacebar switch.

I did not know that.

emdude wrote:

keycap wrote: Perhaps a quick cleaning of the space bar might help, if you haven't already tried it. My M0116 with SKCM Salmons also had a gummy space bar (if you pressed it on the far right it would sometimes just stick), but cleaning it fixed the issue.

Yes, it's those round "insert" stabilizers that collect filth over time IMO.

jacobolus wrote: Some (most? all?) of the salmon Alps Apple keyboards use a stiffer spring (still a salmon colored slider though) in the spacebar switch.

That's really weird. How do they know the difference between regular SKCM Salmon and stiff SKCM Salmon when assembling the keyboards? And did they do this with the Orange Alps variant?

Whenever I've bought an Alps built keyboard like the Sharp and NEC I own, they would mark the switches with a heavier spring with a little bit of paint or marker or something. I've never heard of the Apple boards having a heavier spring.