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Posted: 26 May 2016, 18:02
by Muirium
When my ballot gets here. Already got the letter telling me to expect it.
The thread will be more fun than the media coverage. What a load of English people shouting at English people! Tory on Tory sounds hotter than it actually turns out to be…
Posted: 26 May 2016, 18:06
by photekq
Posted: 26 May 2016, 18:14
by fohat
andrewjoy wrote:
Thats why we need to fight him with numbers and logic.
Back to the TL;DR version of my NYT Krugman post from a couple of weeks ago:
"I understand debt better than probably anybody. I know how to deal with debt very well. I love debt -- but you know, debt is tricky and it's dangerous, and you have to be careful and you have to know what you're doing," Trump said.
Truly, Donald Trump knows nothing. He is more ignorant about policy than you can possibly imagine, even when you take into account the fact that he is more ignorant than you can possibly imagine. But his ignorance isn’t as unique as it may seem: In many ways, he’s just doing a clumsy job of channeling nonsense widely popular in his party, and to some extent in the chattering classes more generally.
None of this should be taken as an excuse for Mr. Trump. He really is frighteningly uninformed; worse, he doesn’t appear to know what he doesn’t know. The point, instead, is that his blithe lack of knowledge largely follows from the know-nothing attitudes of the party he now leads.
- Paul Krugman (Nobel-prize-winning economist) - “The Making of an Ignoramus” New York Times 2016
Posted: 26 May 2016, 18:15
by Muirium
Like a true Brexiteer, I'm boycotting your thread Photekq and putting my campaigning efforts into my own!
Posted: 26 May 2016, 18:23
by seebart
Muirium wrote: Like a true Brexiteer, I'm boycotting your thread Photekq and putting my campaigning efforts into my own!
And I'll spam it with anti EU text blocks. And mindless cat memes.
Posted: 26 May 2016, 18:41
by Muirium
Godspeed, good sir!
If there's someone I can't stand even worse than the enemy, it's an ally doing something I can't agree with for some petty reason I can't remember and who now must feel my hot leaden wrath. Bally plebs!
Posted: 27 May 2016, 09:19
by jacobolus
andrewjoy wrote: But the majority of the attacks in the western world at the moment are instigated by people who follow islam [...] The ideology itself is not compatible with western values,
Characterizing Islam as “the ideology” is ridiculously ignorant.
There’s plenty of “not compatible with western values” citizens of crazytown all over the West, including to start all of the far-right parties in Europe, Trump’s brutish followers, and a good chunk of the Brexiteers. Muslims have no monopoly on stupidity, ignorance, arrogance, hate, or violent outbursts.
The majority of death and damage in the world is caused by mosquitos, lack of plumbing and water treatment, sugary drinks, automobile accidents, environmental pollution, wrongheaded official diet guidelines, doctors who don’t follow checklists, organized crime, corrupt officials, domestic violence, poor city planning and long commutes, ineffective mental health services, advertising, the financial services industry, bad tax policy, and rubber dome keyboards in a QWERTY layout. In comparison, a handful of terrorist attacks are a rounding error on a rounding error, and should be dealt with by the police, as individual crimes.
Setting up a “clash of civilizations” serves nobody but extremists and war profiteers. Ghettoizing new immigrants and treating them as second-class citizens just breeds resentment on both sides.
Posted: 27 May 2016, 10:31
by andrewjoy
jacobolus wrote: andrewjoy wrote: But the majority of the attacks in the western world at the moment are instigated by people who follow islam [...] The ideology itself is not compatible with western values,
Characterizing Islam as “the ideology” is ridiculously ignorant.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
There is nothing ignorant about saying , a ideology/religion/whatever is wrong or its not compatible. Its not against any people its against the idea , we have to be able to call out bad ideas.
An ideology that promotes murder , subjugation of women , genital mutilation cutting peoples hands off, stoning people for getting raped, killing homosexuals etc etc is not going to work in a society where all of that is against the law.
So in your view if a new religion came along and one of the teaching was you have to kill one person a day for the sky not to fall down and that its perfectly fine to bugger young children then we should respect that ? Fuck No!
And you say most of the death in the world is caused by x y and z , yes correct it is , but that has nothing to do with being opposed to an idea.
There is no clash of civilisations, an ideology is not a civilisation.
Posted: 27 May 2016, 10:59
by jacobolus
Islam is a religion practiced by 1.7 billion people. It does not a priori promote murder, subjugation of women, genital mutilation, cutting anyone’s hands off, stoning rape victims, or killing homosexuals any more than Christianity or Hinduism or Judaism or Buddhism.
Particular groups of radical Islamic fundamentalists have a retrograde set of practices and political beliefs. The same is true for particular groups of radical Christian fundamentalists, particular groups of rich British bankers, etc.
A significant cause of the rise of Islamic fundamentalism is direct reaction to more than a century of European colonialism, wars of aggression, murder, land theft, military occupation, support for local strongmen and criminal gangs, assassinations, secret coups, endless supplies of weapons, and violent opposition to secular organizers, political moderates, and intellectuals throughout the Middle East (many of whom were considered potential Communists). The result has been political instability, humanitarian disaster, and in many places rule by force instead of law. It’s unsurprising that many people in those countries are mad as hell at the vaguely defined “West”. The Ottoman Empire was hardly a friendly bunch, but the hegemonic quasi-empires of British, French, Americans, etc. have been a total disaster.
To turn that around and declare that Islam and Muslims, all 1.7 billion of them, are fundamentally evil and terrible, and incompatible with free society or whatever nonsensical other thing is pure intolerant bullshit.
Start by asking David Cameron why he’s such a close buddy to the fucking Saudi royal family (and obviously ask the same of US leaders). Would you say anyone who voted for Cameron belongs to an “ideology” fundamentally incompatible with freedom or basic decency?
Posted: 27 May 2016, 11:07
by seebart
That is very true, it should also be noted that the most recent most extreme forms of Islamic fundamentalism is a reaction to the military invervention(s) in the last 15+ years by the western allies. Not that there was total harmony before but the general situation did not become simpler. I have said this before, even I with my very limited knowledge of Islam know that what we know as the islamic state has little or nothing to do with the Koran and Islam.
Posted: 27 May 2016, 11:23
by jacobolus
andrewjoy: Just out of curiosity, do you know any Muslims? Have any Muslim friends? Have you ever been to a service at a mosque? Traveled in Muslim countries? Read any of the Qur'an, or any philosophy by famous Islamic scholars? Have you studied Islamic history or culture? Etc. I don’t really have a sense of where you’re coming from.
Posted: 27 May 2016, 11:42
by seebart
jacobolus wrote: andrewjoy: Just out of curiosity, do you know any Muslims? Have any Muslim friends? Have you ever been to a service at a mosque? Traveled in Muslim countries? Read any of the Qur'an, or any philosophy by famous Islamic scholars? Have you studied Islamic history or culture? Etc. I don’t really have a sense of where you’re coming from.
I'll tell I do not and I don't need any of those experiences (although they would not hurt) to to form my own opinion apart from mass-media that is today (in my part of the world) massive in a bad way and informative in a minor way.
Posted: 27 May 2016, 11:50
by Muirium
Hint: they don't bite. Not the ones I know. They're actually just as complex and urbane as any Christians or the mass of nonreligious people that I consider family, friends and acquaintances.
The nutters that act "in their name" are as bizarre and awful to many Muslim eyes as fascist skinheads are to us when they act "for whites". Or paramilitaries in Northern Ireland when they act "for Catholics" or "for Protestants". Or when a gamergator really does murder a female dev or journo in cold blood "for all men". The list goes on and on and on. Get it yet? People don't ask for this. And there is no opt out. Only choosing not to buy the lunatic vision of the world the nutters want you to believe with them.
Posted: 27 May 2016, 12:07
by webwit
I've read the fatawa by Bin Laden. Yes he's right, the west should get out of their countries. They are the resistance, we are the bad guys. Something western propaganda kept neatly out of the news. And the weapon of choice is religion. Ugly, but effective.
Posted: 27 May 2016, 12:13
by Muirium
Must be comforting to imagine we can actually do something to fix all this.
It's an illusion. Nutters don't just stop being nutters. Give them what they want, and they will want more. Remember their scripture (like ours!) has all that End Times stuff in it. They'll want you dead in your own home, ultimately, so the finale comes.
Extremism. Always the same. Shouting, kicking, screaming, killing. Choose to engage it which way you want, it won't accept you. That's not its game.
Posted: 27 May 2016, 12:16
by seebart
Muirium wrote: Extremism. Always the same. Shouting, kicking, screaming, killing. Choose to engage it which way you want, it won't accept you. That's not its game.
Unfortunately it's more shooting and bombing these days but idea is the same.
Posted: 27 May 2016, 12:23
by webwit
What's funny is that we did the same in the time of spices and slaves, corrupt countries and rob them, and everybody now knows it's wrong, and people still feel wronged by what other people's grand-grand-grand...parents did to theirs. But people from both sides now happily live in a time of oil of the richness obtained in similar fashion, where we corrupt countries and rob them. We are hypocrites.
Posted: 27 May 2016, 12:30
by Muirium
We are humans.
Everyone is tainted by the world by living in it. Even silent Buddhist monks gotta eat. And so the corruption carries on…
Posted: 28 May 2016, 19:22
by fohat
webwit wrote:
What's funny is that we did the same in the time of spices and slaves,
But we each have to do our tiny parts to steer the trajectory of the human race towards justice.
That is, if we consider ourselves to be at least sentient, if not transcendent beings, rather than simply top predators.
I had ancestors who were slave-owners and Indian-killers, and that was the norm for the society that they lived in.
But I consider myself to be more evolved and philosophical than they were, so my attitudes have swung around.
Posted: 28 May 2016, 20:13
by Muirium
fohat wrote: our tiny parts
We're still talking about Trump then, I see.
Posted: 28 May 2016, 23:36
by fohat
Muirium wrote:
We're still talking about Trump then, I see.
Not really, but he does have small hands.
Posted: 03 Jun 2016, 21:53
by fohat
Posted: 03 Jun 2016, 22:43
by chuckdee
I'd say the implication is that other presidents get older from the stresses of office, where Trump would get crazier and more deranged. But, that's just my interpretation.
Posted: 05 Jun 2016, 00:13
by Halvar
Posted: 05 Jun 2016, 08:08
by jacobolus
Terry Tao:
https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2016/06/ ... f-america/
James Fallows has been pretty good, e.g.
http://www.theatlantic.com/notes/all/20 ... mp/484064/
And check Clinton’s website’s nice rebuttal to Trump’s non-rebuttal of her speech, click through for source links:
https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing ... se-things/
This is a man who said that more countries should have nuclear weapons, including Saudi Arabia.
ANDERSON COOPER: Saudi Arabia, nuclear weapons?
TRUMP: Saudi Arabia, absolutely.
This is someone who has threatened to abandon our allies in NATO – the countries that work with us to root out terrorists abroad before they strike us at home.
TRUMP: “We don't really need NATO in its current form. NATO is obsolete… if we have to walk, we walk.”
He believes we can treat the U.S. economy like one of his casinos and default on our debts to the rest of the world, which would cause an economic catastrophe far worse than anything we experienced in 2008.
TRUMP: “I’ve borrowed knowing that you can pay back with discounts... I would borrow knowing that if the economy crashed, you could make a deal.”
He has said that he would order our military to carry out torture...
TRUMP: “Don’t tell me it doesn’t work — torture works… Waterboarding is fine, but it’s not nearly tough enough, ok?”
and the murder of civilians who are related to suspected terrorists...
TRUMP: "The other thing with the terrorists is you have to take out their families”
even though those are war crimes.
TRUMP: “They won’t refuse. They’re not going to refuse me, If I say do it, they’re going to do it.”
He says he doesn’t have to listen to our generals or ambassadors, because he has – quote – “a very good brain.”
TRUMP: “I’m speaking with myself, number one, because I have a very good brain and I’ve said a lot of things...my primary consultant is myself”
He also said, “I know more about ISIS than the generals, believe me.”
TRUMP: “I know more about ISIS than the generals do. Believe me.”
You know what? I don’t believe him.
TRUMP: “We don't even really know who the leader [of ISIS] is.”
He believes climate change is a hoax invented by the Chinese...
TRUMP: “The concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive.”
and has the gall to say prisoners of war like John McCain aren’t heroes.
TRUMP: “He’s not a war hero. He was a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren’t captured, ok? I hate to tell you.”
He praises dictators like Vladimir Putin...
TRUMP: "I will tell you, in terms of leadership, he's getting an 'A,' and our president is not doing so well.”
and picks fights with our friends – including the British prime minister…
TRUMP: "It looks like we are not going to have a very good relationship. Who knows?"
the mayor of London…
TRUMP: "Let's take an I.Q. test... I think they're very rude statements and frankly, tell him, I will remember those statements."
the German chancellor…
TRUMP: “What Merkel has done is incredible, it’s actually mind boggling. Everyone thought she was a really great leader and now she’s turned out to be this catastrophic leader. And she’ll be out if they don’t have a revolution.”
the president of Mexico…
TRUMP: “I don't know about the Hitler comparison [President Nieto made]. I hadn't heard that, but it's a terrible comparison. I'm not happy about that certainly. I don't want that comparison, but we have to be strong and we have to be vigilant”
and the Pope.
TRUMP: “I don’t think [the Pope] understands the danger of the open border that we have with Mexico. I think Mexico got him to [criticize the wall] it because they want to keep the border just the way it is. They’re making a fortune, and we’re losing.”
He says he has foreign policy experience because he ran the Miss Universe pageant in Russia.
TRUMP: “I know Russia well. I had a major event in Russia two or three years ago, Miss Universe contest, which was a big, big, incredible event.”
And to top it off, he believes America is weak. An embarrassment.
TRUMP: "I think we've become very weak and ineffective."
He called our military a disaster.
TRUMP: “Our military is a disaster.”
He said we’re – quote – a “third-world country.”
TRUMP: “We have become a third world country, folks.”
That’s why it’s no small thing when he talks about leaving NATO or says he’ll stay neutral on Israel’s security.
TRUMP: “Let me be sort of a neutral guy.”
It’s no small thing when he calls Mexican immigrants rapists and murderers.
TRUMP: “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists.”
And it’s no small thing when he suggests that America should withdraw our military support for Japan, encourage them to get nuclear weapons...
TRUMP: “And frankly, the case could be made, that let them protect themselves against North Korea. They’d probably wipe them out pretty quick.”
and said this about a war between Japan and North Korea – and I quote – “If they do, they do. Good luck, enjoy yourself, folks.”
TRUMP: “And if they fight, you know what, that would be a terrible thing, terrible. Good luck folks, enjoy yourself…if they do, they do”
Donald Trump doesn’t know the first thing about Iran or its nuclear program. Ask him. It’ll become clear very quickly.
TRUMP: “When those restrictions expire, Iran will have an industrial-size military nuclear capability ready to go." (Politifact: False.)
There’s no risk of people losing their lives if you blow up a golf-course deal. But it doesn’t work like that in world affairs. Just like being interviewed on the same episode of “60 Minutes” as Putin is not the same as actually dealing with Putin.
TRUMP: “I got to know him very well, because we were both on 60 minutes, we were stablemates and we did very well that night. You know that.”
He wants to start a trade war with China.
TRUMP: "These dummies say, 'Oh, that's a trade war. Trade war? We're losing $500 billion in trade with China. Who the hell cares if there's a trade war?”
And I have to say, I don’t understand Donald’s bizarre fascination with dictators and strongmen who have no love for America. He praised China for the Tiananmen Square massacre; he said it showed strength.
TRUMP: “When the students poured into Tiananmen Square, the Chinese government almost blew it. Then they were vicious, they were horrible, but they put it down with strength. That shows you the power of strength."
He said, “You’ve got to give Kim Jong Un credit” for taking over North Korea – something he did by murdering everyone he saw as a threat, including his own uncle, which Donald described gleefully, like he was recapping an action movie.
TRUMP: "And you've got to give him credit. How many young guys — he was like 26 or 25 when his father died — take over these tough generals…. It's incredible. He wiped out the uncle. He wiped out this one, that one. I mean, this guy doesn't play games.”
And he said that, if he were grading Vladimir Putin as a leader, he’d give him an A.
TRUMP: "I will tell you, in terms of leadership, he's getting an 'A,'
What’s Trump’s [ISIS plan]? He won’t say. He is literally keeping it a secret. The secret, of course, is he has no idea what he’d do to stop ISIS.
TRUMP: “I do know what to do and I would know how to bring ISIS to the table or beyond that, defeat ISIS very quickly and I’m not going to tell you what is… All I can tell you it is a foolproof way of winning.”
Just look at the few things he actually has said on the subject. He actually said – quote – “maybe Syria should be a free zone for ISIS.” That’s right – let a terrorist group have control of a major country in the Middle East.
TRUMP: It's really rather amazing, maybe Syria should be a free zone for ISIS, let them fight and then you pick up the remnants.
Then he said we should send tens of thousands of American ground troops to the Middle East to fight ISIS.
TRUMP: "We really have no choice. We have to knock out ISIS. We have to knock the hell out of them… I would listen to the generals but I'm hearing numbers of 20,000 to 30,000. We have to knock them out fast."
He also refused to rule out using nuclear weapons against ISIS, which would mean mass civilian casualties.
TRUMP: “I’m never going to rule anything out—I wouldn’t want to say [if I’d use nuclear weapons against ISIS.]”
Trump says over and over again, “The world is laughing at us.” He’s been saying this for decades.
TRUMP (1999): "[Saudi Arabians] take such advantage of us with the oil... and they laugh at this country.
TRUMP (2010): "I know many of the people in China, I know many of the big business people, and they're laughing at us.”
TRUMP (2011): “We have become a laughingstock, the world’s whipping boy”
TRUMP (2012): “The world is laughing at us."
TRUMP (2013): “After Syria, our enemies are laughing!”
TRUMP (2014): “Mexican leadership has been laughing at us for many years”
TRUMP (2015): “The Persians are great negotiators. They are laughing at the stupidity of the deal we’re making”
TRUMP (2016): “We can't afford to be so nice and so foolish anymore. Our country is in trouble. ISIS is laughing at us.”
He bought full-page ads in newspapers across the country back in 1987, when Reagan was President, saying that America lacked a backbone and the world was – you guessed it – laughing at us.
TRUMP (1987): "The world is laughing at America's politicians as we protect ships we don't own, carrying oil we don't need, destined for allies who won't help… "Let's not let our great country be laughed at anymore."
And it matters when he makes fun of disabled people...
TRUMP: “Now the poor guy -- you oughta see this guy [imitating disabled reporter] ‘aaah, I don’t know what I said, aaah, I don’t remember.’”
calls women pigs...
TRUMP: “Does everybody know that pig named Rosie O’Donnell? She’s a disgusting pig, right?”
proposes banning an entire religion from our country...
TRUMP: “Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on.”
or plays coy with white supremacists.
TRUMP: "I don't know anything about what you're even talking about with white supremacy or white supremacists. So I don't know. I don't know -- did he endorse me, or what's going on? Because I know nothing about David Duke; I know nothing about white supremacists."
Posted: 05 Jun 2016, 16:43
by fohat
jacobolus wrote:
Clinton’s .... rebuttal to Trump’s non-rebuttal of her speech
Clinton's speech was masterful, but I can't see that it will make any difference.
"Undecided voters" WTF?
I can't see anyone on the face of this planet being "undecided" at this point, given the polarization of the 2 sides.
All that matters now is getting people to the polls to vote at all, rather than sitting out the election in disgust.
Not the question of Clinton vs Trump, but rather "somebody" vs "nobody"
Somewhere along I lost the attribution for this quote, but it is perfectly valid:
"Republican voters would walk across broken glass and burning coals to vote for their candidates. Democrats gripe about 'pinching their nose' and they turn up to vote as an inconvenience when they have the time and good TV isn't on.
Simply put: Republicans fall in line, Democrats either fall in love or are unmotivated early.
Too many Democrats believe that being right on an issue is all that matters.
Your opponent believes that the earth is flat. You point out that your opponent is a lunatic, obviously, the earth isn't flat. If your opponent turns out more people who believe that the earth is flat than you turn out individuals who understand it is not, the fact that he is technically wrong is meaningless. You still lost."
Posted: 05 Jun 2016, 18:09
by Muirium
It's always amazing just how completely disengaged from politics some people can be. If they don't even know who the candidates are and what they're for by now, they surely don't follow the news at all, likely popular culture generally and arguably even civilisation itself. Yet they still have votes, if they can be arsed to use them. I remember the sneering over here when Bush's people got the Amish out -- the Amish!! -- and swung him a close election in 2004 by addressing such groups.
I'm usually anything but a "low information voter", myself. But I'm feeling sympathy with them for a change thanks to the Europe referendum currently dominating the London media over here. My usual political pals are likewise thoroughly under-excited about it. Mind, we know perfectly well it's going on, and the arguments of the sides. With us, it feels like someone else's business, which won't be decided up here. Perhaps there's a bit of that last part with some voters, who may have the accidental insight that in an election of millions, single votes don't matter. When it's that close,
someone else steps in.
Posted: 05 Jun 2016, 22:52
by Redmaus
fohat wrote:
"Republican voters would walk across broken glass and burning coals to vote for their candidates. Democrats gripe about 'pinching their nose' and they turn up to vote as an inconvenience when they have the time and good TV isn't on.
Simply put: Republicans fall in line, Democrats either fall in love or are unmotivated early.
Too many Democrats believe that being right on an issue is all that matters.
Your opponent believes that the earth is flat. You point out that your opponent is a lunatic, obviously, the earth isn't flat. If your opponent turns out more people who believe that the earth is flat than you turn out individuals who understand it is not, the fact that he is technically wrong is meaningless. You still lost."
Yes all Republicans are one person and all Democrats are one person
Posted: 06 Jun 2016, 00:08
by jacobolus
fohat wrote: Clinton's speech was masterful, but I can't see that it will make any difference.
I don’t think this is true. I think she’s really thrown Trump off his game. He’s looked really uncomfortable and crazy the past few days, even compared to his usual standard.
Republican voters would walk across broken glass and burning coals to vote for their candidates. Democrats gripe about 'pinching their nose' and they turn up to vote as an inconvenience when they have the time and good TV isn't on.
I also don’t think this is true. We’ll see how it goes though.
Posted: 06 Jun 2016, 01:37
by chuckdee
fohat wrote:
"Undecided voters" WTF?
I can't see anyone on the face of this planet being "undecided" at this point, given the polarization of the 2 sides.
Me. Because I don't want to decide on either. So I'll wait until they are confirmed as the candidates, hoping that there is some 11th hour change. Because I don't think that either is good for the country. Especially because of this tidbit in your statement, "given the polarization of the 2 sides." They're feeding off that, and using it. And it's no where near good for the country, especially as divided as it currently is. I want a president that will be leader of all the people, and able to reach across the aisle, no matter who it is. I know it's unrealistic, but I'm going to hold out for a miracle until the very end.
