deskthority

And finally for the conclusion of the trilogy! Last week I talked about the start of the series with SKCL Green; in this video we look at where Alps took the design from there. Also finally a side-by-side comparison of orange and salmon Alps!

As always, I love the intros. I will eventually have two apple iic boards and could send some ambers to you for testing if you want Chyros!

Redmaus wrote: As always, I love the intros. I will eventually have two apple iic boards and could send some ambers to you for testing if you want Chyros!

Most definitely, and thanks! I've been looking to get some for a while .

Your timeline is a bit off. The dampened cream switches were not in the same tall-switchplate “generation” as green/brown/blue/orange/ivory/amber switches, but rather were concurrent with yellow/salmon/clicky white.

The basic version of the SKCL/SKCM chart should be something like: It’s not totally clear what the production-year ordering should be for the top row, or exactly where linear brown or clicky amber switches fit into the picture (amber switches definitely did not precede blue switches). The rest of the chart is pretty well established though.

IMO the earliest black switches (as can be found e.g. in NeXT keyboards) are almost indistinguishable from salmon switches.

The quality drop-off is really most noticeable with the black, white, and damped white "bamboo" switches without the slits in the top housing. But there’s also a definite difference between "tall switchplate" and "short switchplate" switches; which type is "better" between those is a matter of personal preference.

jacobolus wrote: Your timeline is definitely a bit off. The dampened cream switches were not in the same tall-switchplate “generation” as green/brown/blue/orange/ivory/amber switches, but rather were concurrent with yellow/salmon/clicky white.

Yes, but they were the first iteration of the dampened switch, hence why I decided to put them in the first generation. The diagram is more meant to show what switch was developed from what predecessor - I wasn't comfortable making a strict timeline as we have quite limited evidence in a lot of cases (and there is massive timeline overlap, of course). You're absolutely right of course that they share switchplate, lack of lube, slider material etc. with second-gen switches .

Amber switches definitely did not precede blue switches.

Oh, why is that? =o

If this is anything to go off of, https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... kK7p4VU4eM, then it seems that the Apple IIc model (A2S4100) that is known to have Amber Alps came around in 1986, which means it probably falls a bit more in-line with blues and doesn't necessarily precede them.

There's also Brown Linear Alps and linear Amber Alps (which many people like to throw in with SKCL yellow, but I don't agree with this). According to Daniel Beardsmore, these were an exclusively Korean switch made by Goldstar Alps. It's true; you seem to only see linear brown Alps in Korean made boards like the Visual LK201 clone and the Tandem board I got from XMIT and so on. It's said that most SKCL Brown boards have a K somewhere in the serial number or on the PCB's serial number which indicates its origin in Korea.

The Visual board literally says "MADE IN KOREA" in the back, and the other example we know of, the DC-3014, is also Korean, and then there's also a Packard Bell 84 key that has them, but I'm not sure of its origin.

My Tandem board has a date from 1988, so linear brown switches were being made well into the late '80s.

Much thanks to Daniel for sharing more information on all of this, since I never would've realized the connection to Goldstar Alps.

Amber switches are only found in one place (the Apple //c, model a2s4100, a.k.a. "ROM version 3", dating from late 1986 through the end of 1987. I believe there might be blue Alps keyboards from as early as 1985, but I’m positive I’ve seen pictures of blue Alps keyboards from 1986.

The first use of Alps SKCM switches (of the tactile "ivory" variety) in Canon AP typewriters is sometime between 1984 and 1986 (that is, in 1984 they still used a different switch, and by 1986 they were using SKCMAF). There’s a picture in the Deskthority wiki of an Alps catalog page (of unknown origin) showing blue and ivory switches for sale, under the "SKCMAG" and "SKCMAF" part names, respectively. I suspect it dates from sometime in 1985–1987 timeframe.

My speculation is that the Amber switches were some special one-off for Apple, but I really don’t know. An alternate speculative theory: Maybe they were heavier switches that were intended for spacebars, but nobody was buying them, so Apple bought a bunch on a discount? Who knows...

The IBM PC Convertible 5140 with brown switches also dates from 1986. I’m not sure if there were earlier tactile brown Alps keyboards or not. I’m also not sure what the part number was for the brown switches. They might not have even been in the SKCM series per se.

I think orange switches start showing up in 1988 or so.

Good work Chyros. I'm really not sure about amber switches preceding blue switches or not.

Yeah, much like linear Cream Alps seem to be found only in the Bondwell PRO 8T laptops, though I'd wonder what other related laptops might have, like the original Bondwell 8 Laptop, which almost certainly also uses Alps switches:



There are a few seemingly "exclusive" switches like the linear Cream switch and the Amber, and also the tactile Green, it seems. I'm very curious to know more about the history of the SKCM Brown and SKCM Green switches, to be honest.

There's also SKCM Cream (Ivory) as you say. They aren't just found in Canon typewriters, but also in the earliest of NeXT Non-ADB boards, apparently.

Snuci shows them in this thread here: photos-f62/next-non-adb-keyboard-t12259.html




As you can see, it does indeed have a tactile leaf and a long plate too.

jacobolus wrote: The IBM PC Convertible 5140 with brown switches also dates from 1986. I’m not sure if there were earlier tactile brown Alps keyboards or not. I’m also not sure what the part number was for the brown switches. They might not have even been in the SKCM series per se.

I think some Texas Instruments keyboards from 1984 had both SKCL Brown and SKCM Brown switches in them. I'll have to double check, but I know it's at least true about SKCL Brown.

Not sure, but check out this thread: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=33392.0

I know these are some early boards, but I don't know how early. I could've sworn the TI Low Profile board goes back to 1984.

E3E wrote: Yeah, much like linear Cream Alps seem to be found only in the Bondwell PRO 8T laptops,

Not quite right. I’ve also seen one used as a spacebar switch in an otherwise green Alps board.

I'd wonder what other related laptops might have, like the original Bondwell 8 Laptop, which almost certainly also uses Alps switches:

Given the keycaps, SKFL, or possibly integrated dome. My money is on SKFL though.

There's also SKCM Cream (Ivory) as you say. They aren't just found in Canon typewriters, but also in the earliest of NeXT Non-ADB boards, apparently.

This one is a substantially different tactile leaf shape than the one in the Canon typewriters.

It’s probably from the 1988–1989 timeframe. I wonder how the feel compares to orange switches.

Makes me wonder if Ivory -> black and orange -> salmon were supposed to be different switch lines, though.

jacobolus wrote:

E3E wrote: Yeah, much like linear Cream Alps seem to be found only in the Bondwell PRO 8T laptops,

Not quite right. I’ve also seen one used as a spacebar switch in an otherwise green Alps board.

Oh yeah, I know, but I'm talking about the switches being used in a full board's worth. You can't find that anywhere else other than the Bondwell laptops, it would seem.

I've also never seen Amber Alps ever used as a space bar switch aside from its linear variant, so I'm not so sure if they were originally intended for space bars. You'd imagine at least one board would have them on their space bar position, but I've yet to see one.

Given the keycaps, SKFL, or possibly integrated dome. My money is on SKFL though.

You think so? I'm not sure, really. They just seemed very similar to the caps on the Pro 8T board.



The legends are very similar, but if these caps will also fit into SKFL switches, then yeah, I definitely think that it's plausible.

jacobolus wrote: This one is a substantially different tactile leaf shape than the one in the Canon typewriters.

Do you have any photos of these? There are also some from an HP board with an AT101 chassis and the leaf is also very similar. Does the Canon only use the switch on specific locations, or is it used for most of the board?

If what you say, then that means that there are two SKCM Cream variants. Definitely need photos before anything can be said for certain.

Nah, the Bondwell 8 is almost the same keyboard as in the Kyotronic 85 / Olivetti M10 / NEC PC8201 / TRS-80 100, and from the same time period.

The 8T does use the same keycaps though, you’re right. Actually, one of the only SKCL / SKCM keyboards I’ve seen which used those quasi-spherical Alps caps. (I think I’ve also seen pictures of some Japanese SKCL keyboards with those keycaps?)

The 1986-era Canon typewriters use the SKCMAF "ivory" switch for most of the keys. Plus a handful of double-acting Alps plate spring switches for the spacebar, enter, and maybe backspace keys, with the second level down acting as repeat. On the sides, it uses a mix of SKCL green switches with LED holes, and double-acting SKCL switches.

By maybe 1988 (?) Canon typewriters had switched to using tactile SMK switches instead.

Haha, good to know. That definitely just about confirms it if there is a connection between those that you mention and the Bondwell 8.

That typewriter is just a plethora of obscurity in the Alps world. It has a number of switches that seem seldom seen anywhere else, if EVEN. I'd love to run into one sometime. Was it one single particular model of typewriter, or did several from that era use SKCM Ivory?

What is the main difference between the SKCM Ivory and SKCM Cream switches? What's distinctive about the leaves between the two? I wouldn't imagine that the ivory switches use something complex like the SKCM Brown tactile mechanism.

Looking at both of them back to back, from the Canon, and then the NeXT, they are practically identical visually when it comes to slider color. Seems strange if they are indeed different, but then I have seen SKCM Brown with a simplified tactile leaf (much like the common tactile leaves and nothing like early SKCM Brown or even SKCM Green). Which is just... odd.



Really, it makes you wonder where the first more common tactile design originated. Was it this later variation on SKCM Brown, or was it SKCM Ivory? Alps is indeed a rabbit hole that is far more complex than it seems at first glance.

Another question that can be posed is, well... Is this even part of the same SKCM Brown line as the type with the two part mechanism?

We just can't know for sure. I guess if you start seeing this variant in boards that originally had the more complicated version, then you could make an inference to their connection.

http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/tipandtech/122939

Also, if you check out the entire diagram, it would seem that this version of SKCM Brown has a symmetrical slider, which the more typical SKCM Brown switches do not have (as far as I have seen). In fact, you only really ever see this on linear switches.

If the Ivory doesn't have a symmetrical slider, then that might point toward this SKCM Brown variant being the first tactile switch in the common line.

Ahh, what a headache!

I'm sure a part of the problem is that several different factories did completely different things for the switches. It's like we're trying to find Audi trends in a Mercedes factory.

I deliberately didn't put in anything specific about the rarer switch types as there's just too little to come to a definitive conclusion yet... Although when I say "yet", the chances of us finding out more are getting slimmer and slimmer xD .

E3E wrote: That typewriter is just a plethora of obscurity in the Alps world. It has a number of switches that seem seldom seen anywhere else, if EVEN. I'd love to run into one sometime. Was it one single particular model of typewriter, or did several from that era use SKCM Ivory?

At least 4–5 different models of Canon AP typewriters used the ivory SKCM switches.

Canon AP typewriter progression went something like:
SKCC
Alps “Vertical plate spring”
Alps SKCM
Tactile SMK (inverse cross mount)

Each generation had a few different models.

Here’s HaaTa’s pic of vertical plate spring switch internals:

E3E wrote: Also, if you check out the entire diagram, it would seem that this version of SKCM Brown has a symmetrical slider, which the more typical SKCM Brown switches do not have (as far as I have seen). In fact, you only really ever see this on linear switches.

The “ivory” switches don’t have a symmetrical slider. However, they do have a symmetrical top housing.

Chyros wrote: I'm sure a part of the problem is that several different factories did completely different things for the switches. It's like we're trying to find Audi trends in a Mercedes factory.

I deliberately didn't put in anything specific about the rarer switch types as there's just too little to come to a definitive conclusion yet... Although when I say "yet", the chances of us finding out more are getting slimmer and slimmer xD .

I think most of the confusion has been from partial information, rather than because there were various factories doing weird ad-hoc stuff. As people document more keyboards, the amount of information we have goes up. It would certainly be a bit easier if there were a better database of precise (or imprecise) dates and details (though I don’t have time to put something like that together), but even just scattered forum threads is useful for putting together most of the story

FYI, Daniel Beardsmore just sent me several insulting emails in which he says that it's possible that black succeeded cream instead of salmon... So there you have it, folks, it's possible that black succeeded cream instead of salmon! XD

That is hilarious and also so typical of him...

Nice video, it's been quite informative (if even apparently wrong enough to send several angry emails about).

scottc wrote: That is hilarious and also so typical of him...

Nice video, it's been quite informative (if even apparently wrong enough to send several angry emails about).

Well he didn't actually say that black succeeded cream, just that we don't know whether it does or not. Which, if you watch the video, is not even in conflict with what I say ; I explicitly mention I left out obscure switches like cream because we don't know about them or where they fit in the timeline.

What he said about me is nowhere near the words he had for the community before this, though xD .

First off, Chryos, good work. You have the community churning, which is a GOOD thing

From a keyboard novice point of view, why don't we collectively try to create a timeline? No one person can do it but we have a bunch of people with a bunch of examples so why don't we have a Wiki page that lists the Alps switches and their earliest and latest known dates? We ask the DT community to dig into whatever keyboards they have and mark down the keyboard controller date or failing that, IC date, so it is somewhat consistent.

I have a few keyboards but the whole community has them too. It's like the Model M registry that clickykeyboards has. Have them provide evidence of the date and then we know the earliest or the latest date for each type of Alps switch.

The again, I'm a relative newbie so maybe this won't work but I think it's worth a shot. It's better than arguing about heresay and the wrath of Daniel Beardsmore He has put a ton of work into the collective knowledge as have many others so I think we can help out here a little.

Maybe we can do the same for Cherry too. I will volunteer to help set up a page or two, if it helps the cause.

Once we do this, we can supplement the pages like these: wiki/Alps_SKCL/SKCM_series

Chyros wrote: FYI, Daniel Beardsmore just sent me several insulting emails in which he says that it's possible that black succeeded cream instead of salmon... So there you have it, folks, it's possible that black succeeded cream instead of salmon! XD

Of course it's possible that's why these lengthy discussions are really procrastination until we have proof which might never happen. Funky PM's won't change anything either.

I don't think anyone should be fearing the wrath of the angry opinionated English man who suddenly up-and-left after years of passive-aggressive (and some actively aggressive) complaining. Daniel Beardsmore did some great work for the wiki, but his word is not gospel -- particularly not when he's not even around to discuss it anymore, apart from sending snide emails!

I agree with snuci here, starting churn and discussion is a hugely positive thing. I learned more about the Alps timeline here than I have from anywhere else which is really great and accessible.

scottc wrote: I don't think anyone should be fearing the wrath of the angry opinionated English man who suddenly up-and-left after years of passive-aggressive (and some actively aggressive) complaining. Daniel Beardsmore did some great work for the wiki, but his word is not gospel -- particularly not when he's not even around to discuss it anymore, apart from sending snide emails!

I agree with snuci here, starting churn and discussion is a hugely positive thing. I learned more about the Alps timeline here than I have from anywhere else which is really great and accessible.

Very well said Scott! But the timeline will still have to be provisional until we can verify the data.

seebart wrote: Very well said Scott! But the timeline will still have to be provisional until we can verify the data.

Absolutely. It is a "work in progress" and will be marked as such. I'm working on a page now.

EDIT: Page is now up at wiki/Alps_Working_Timeline. I will take some time and search through the posts we have in the forums to populate some form of date, if it can be found and work from there.

The idea is to add the date and a link to the keyboard if it is the earliest example, or the latest. If you have a keyboard that falls into this range, it will not be referenced. This is not a perfect science because some subjects may not have a date that is distinguishable so it will not be used.

Once I have some time to go through it, I'll post in the Wiki Talk thread.

scottc wrote: I don't think anyone should be fearing the wrath of the angry opinionated English man who suddenly up-and-left after years of passive-aggressive (and some actively aggressive) complaining. Daniel Beardsmore did some great work for the wiki, but his word is not gospel -- particularly not when he's not even around to discuss it anymore, apart from sending snide emails!

Oh I agree completely, I'm not letting it bother me or anything.

Beardsmore told me there are in fact many Alps switches he hasn't even tried ("brown tactile and linear, green tactile and linear, amber, orange, salmon, ivory tactile and linear, cream damped, white damped, pine black, black simplified, grey simplified etc")... which makes it all the more strange that he is taking such an aggressive, authoritative stance on them.

Still, more dates would be a good start towards a timeline, I agree . I've got around 20 Alps keyboards (not counting duplicates) and I'm happy to help out if necessary . Note that dates can be a little misleading though. Some switches had been lying around for YEARS until they got used, so several switch characteristics would have to be included. For example, I have several switches from a 90s board that have older manufacturing specs than some 80s examples of the same switch.

I definitely agree with Daniel in that I feel like it's uncertain which came first, SKCM Salmon or SKCM Black. You see, it seems that the very lowest serial number AT101s came with doubleshot Alps Electric caps (and you rarely ever see those), and the one example with caps removed on TaoBao (with NO visible serial number) has pine SKCM Black. The other example of an AT101 with DS ABS was on eBay, and it had a serial number of 000060. Literally 60, and it was made in the USA.

The previous example was made in Japan and had no serial number.

So if that low serial number AT101 from the US has Alps SKCM Black, then it is very possible that black came first. It's just a little odd that they'd be used first, then jump to Salmon, and then jump back to SKCM Black.

E3E wrote: I definitely agree with Daniel in that I feel like it's uncertain which came first, SKCM Salmon or SKCM Black. You see, it seems that the very lowest serial number AT101s came with doubleshot Alps Electric caps (and you rarely ever see those), and the one example with caps removed on TaoBao (with NO visible serial number) has pine SKCM Black. The other example of an AT101 with DS ABS was on eBay, and it had a serial number of 000060. Literally 60, and it was made in the USA.

The previous example was made in Japan and had no serial number.

So if that low serial number AT101 from the US has Alps SKCM Black, then it is very possible that black came first. It's just a little odd that they'd be used first, then jump to Salmon, and then jump back to SKCM Black.

That might've been due to different factories. Do we know when the earliest AT101s were manufactured?

The story of ...

ivory -> black            (less stiff?)
orange -> salmon      (stiffer?)
(and then only black for "bamboo" switches)

... seems at least plausible. [I don’t like the name "cream" for these, since the color is decidedly different than the color of the locking, linear, or dampened tactile switches with "cream" sliders.]

I was surprised to see that there were early NeXT keyboards with ivory colored sliders from ~1989. Looking at NeXT keyboards, it does seem like "pine" black and salmon switches might have been mostly concurrent.

I was under the vague impression that Alps made all their SKCL/SKCM switches in Japan, even for keyboards which were assembled elsewhere. I could be totally wrong about that though. And then SKBL/SKBM were made by Forward Electronics in Taiwan?