deskthority

Selling a Frog TKL keyboard.
Condition is practically new, only used it for few days.
Grey color, hotswap F12 pcb, per key RGB, USB C, poron gasket under alu plate.
I've added new transparent lubed Durock stabilisers, but no switches or keycaps included.
Including original zip case.
I paid for it £530 (+£20 stabs) when bought it new from foreign seller, including custom fees, UK VAT and delivery.
Selling cause I finally got black WKL version I wanted.

SOLD

This one took a month to sell at 450, this one took 2 and a half months to sell at 450 and was listed at 510 for about a month before that.

Both of these came with more extras than yours. I reckon you'd have better luck at 420, and in a more custom-centric marketplate.

photekq wrote: 17 Feb 2022, 23:01 This one took a month to sell at 450, this one took 2 and a half months to sell at 450 and was listed at 510 for about a month before that.

Both of these came with more extras than yours. I reckon you'd have better luck at 420, and in a more custom-centric marketplate.

Yeah, 500 pounds for a frog is a lot. Can't really blame the guy tho as he is selling under cost, but he paid a lot a lot. Frog is 400 usd incl shipping+vat(~480USD with vat, 353 pounds) from swagkeys on frog drops.

Just curious, how come this particular keyboard goes for half a beamer?

Bjerrk wrote: 19 Feb 2022, 19:52 Just curious, how come this particular keyboard goes for half a beamer?

It's CNC machined out of aluminium and brass, and it's manufactured in Korea. I could give more reasons, but that alone should tell you enough; CNC machining isn't cheap, especially outside of China.

There are plenty of other metal keyboards designed by enthusiasts, which we would usually refer to as "customs", that sell for similar prices. And there are plenty of other customs which hold aftermarket values far beyond this (some beyond $10,000). There's a lot of history to be found within that realm of keyboards, it was a trend that started in Korea around 2007. It stayed in Korea for many years, and so for a long time, they were referred to as "Korean customs" specifically.

How does one walk into Mordor and discover all that stuff, may I ask? Is it all in Korean, all in private channels, or both?

I appreciate CNC costs a handsome chunk of coin. What I don’t get, though, is why there’s a market of aspiration around it, rather than just the occasional oddball showing off their bespoke confection created solely for their own whimsy, not for trading.

Or why they put Cherry bits in it. I’ll get my flak jacket.

Thanks for the explanation. I won't claim to understand it, but I accept that it's a thing.

It's interesting how the word "custom" seems to denote not-that-customized products as well, though. I'm considering if my Model F77 is, in fact, a custom?

Muirium wrote: 19 Feb 2022, 20:42 How does one walk into Mordor and discover all that stuff, may I ask? Is it all in Korean, all in private channels, or both?

It depends what you mean by that stuff. Do you mean the original Korean customs, the ones that started it all? Or do you mean customs in general? Customs are no longer localised to Korea; they're being designed and manufactured all over the globe. Hell, I even designed my own when I was 15, which you might remember Mu.

If you want to learn about the customs that started it all, those born in Korea around 2007-2010, my best recommendation is to browse the album sections of kbdmania and OTD. These are the ancient* Korean communities where these keyboards were born. First came the DK Saver designed by 뀨뀨 of kbdmania in 2007, and following that came the very famous 356 series designed by eungsam of OTD.

That said, the album sections of those websites are vast. Far bigger than the gallery section here on DT. I wouldn't blame you for finding them entirely unapproachable. In that case, Google will respond quite well to "DK Saver" and "OTD keyboard", and here are a few threads relating to those keyboards:

The Korean Custom Keyboards #1: 356 Series - One of the very first informative posts about these keyboards made in English, written by the co-founder of this very website - sixty. As a side note, sixty is the reason I fell so deeply into these keyboards. He is entirely responsible for stoking my passions for both vintage Cherry keyboards, and these Korean customs. Thanks for that, sixty.

[OTD] Updated Wiki - While the thread OP itself is very incomplete, there's a lot of fun information and links hidden within the thread.

Eungsam's album - Eungsam, the creator of the 356 series, was also a great photographer. Not all of his posts were about keyboards, but you'll find plenty of them in there. Google Translate is your friend, but don't expect it to help too much.

There was a second wave of Korean designers following this; people like LZ (LifeZone), Duck (duck0113), and others. And then around 2013 we Westerners started getting involved. My own TEK-80, along with boosts' Skeldon, were the first - both built for the Phantom PCB (which was originally intended as a replacement PCB for the Filco Majestouch 2). After that, I start to lose track a little bit - my heart still lies with those earliest customs, they're the most special to me. The Koreans kept making things, mostly on kbdlab.co.kr, after OTD and kbdmania lost their activity, and the whole world started to join them.

To have a general look at more modern customs, I think the CustomKeyboards subreddit is a good place to look. It offers a random assortment of customs of all ages, from all countries, and at all price points.

*I say ancient with respect to keyboard communities on the whole. Kbdmania started in 2001 - that's over 20 years ago now, long before Geekhack or Deskthority started. There is so much knowledge held in the posts of those websites. I learned more from reading OTD than I learned from reading Geekhack or Deskthority.

Muirium wrote: 19 Feb 2022, 20:42 I appreciate CNC costs a handsome chunk of coin. What I don’t get, though, is why there’s a market of aspiration around it, rather than just the occasional oddball showing off their bespoke confection created solely for their own whimsy, not for trading.

Well, as demand has gone up, so has supply. I saw customs grow in popularity on Geekhack when I first joined in 2013. People were seeing these mysterious Korean things, which very few people in the west were lucky enough to own. People like sixty and boost, who had friends in Korea that hooked them up. They were intriguing, fascinating, beautiful even. We wanted them too!

The aftermarket prices for some models are mad. It comes down to limited supply, hype, and history. Most models of customs are made in limited quantities in a group buy format, as you'll see in sixty's post on the 356 series, because very few individuals can afford to cough up manufacturing fees out of nowhere, and with a group buy comes a lot of responsibility.

Some modern models are worth beyond $5000, because their design happened to grab a lot of people's attention after they were sold at group buy, increasing the level of demand far beyond the already exhausted supply. To me, this is just daft. I've no interest in pursuing those keyboards at those prices. I don't have that level of disposable income.

Some historically important models, for example some models from the 356 series I've mentioned a few times, are worth far beyond that - $10,000 and up, easily. Not many people can wrap their heads around that, but strangely enough.. I can. I really do see those keyboards as historically important objects, just the same as vintage keyboards, and I would consider dissolving some of my vintage collection to buy one if I could.

Bjerrk wrote: 19 Feb 2022, 22:22 I won't claim to understand it, but I accept that it's a thing.

People like metal. Metal's a nice material - it's pretty, and it's substantial. Owning a metal object, which would not typically be metal, tends to feel a little special. People wanted metal keyboards because they thought it'd be cool. It's not sensible, it doesn't make financial sense, and yet.. here we are. In my mind, this is what enthusiasm is about - doing dumb and/or weird shit because it's fun and/or cool.

Bjerrk wrote: 19 Feb 2022, 22:22 It's interesting how the word "custom" seems to denote not-that-customized products as well, though. I'm considering if my Model F77 is, in fact, a custom?

Nah, the F77 isn't a custom in my mind. It's metal. It was designed by an enthusiast - Ellipse, or whoever he hired. But it ain't a custom.

It's a 1:1 (or very near) replica of a vintage keyboard, which immediately discounts it. There are customs out there heavily inspired by vintage keyboards, but not 1:1 replicas.

Also, the fact it's cast doesn't help. CNC machining is the standard for all kinds of reasons. This might sound like a weird distinction to make, but I think it's valid. The word "custom" is slang; it doesn't mean the same as "custom keyboard". For example, a handwired keyboard that someone constructed from chiselled wood, or layers of lasered acrylic sheet, wouldn't be considered a "custom" - it would be considered a "custom keyboard". A "custom" always specifically referred to a CNC machined aluminium keyboard, designed from the ground-up by an enthusiast. This has grown to include CNC machined polycarbonate, POM, and some other materials, but for the most part: cast items, purely laser cut items, and other oddball materials have been discounted from the classification.

This isn't me trying to be elitist or anything - it's not lesser in any way just because it isn't a custom. I just don't think it's a correct categorisation.

Muirium wrote: 19 Feb 2022, 20:42 Or why they put Cherry bits in it. I’ll get my flak jacket.

I built a custom a few weeks ago with NOS blue alps in it mate. Take that flak jacket off

And hell, if you have the plate file, you could put pretty much any switch in here if you designed a PCB to receive the pins. So long as the switch had dimensions that would work with the internals of the case. Space invaders would probably work a treat.

And no, before you ask, I didn't butcher a vintage Alps board to get the switches.

Now that's an essay of an answer! Respect for the well crafted infodump tour through a longstanding subculture of our keyboard world, whose cost of entry has always barred my personal interest. I knew this stuff was happening in Korea before DT's time, but I either forgot or never knew our very own Sixty was as into it. He's the DT link.

I like this bit especially:

People like metal. Metal's a nice material - it's pretty, and it's substantial. Owning a metal object, which would not typically be metal, tends to feel a little special. People wanted metal keyboards because they thought it'd be cool. It's not sensible, it doesn't make financial sense, and yet.. here we are. In my mind, this is what enthusiasm is about - doing dumb and/or weird shit because it's fun and/or cool.

I've a little hunk-of-aluminium Lambo case for my blue Alps 64. Cost me all of a few sheets on Amazon, so I'm not comparing, but in the uncanny metal stakes it does lend a certain unexpected character to that wee keyboard. It's as heavy in the hand as my Realforce. It always seem wrong, in a delightful way, when you pick it up. Doesn't hurt being fairly shiny, too.

I do indeed remember your first custom. I may well have winced at the price tag at the time. The Alps one you just put together is definitely more up my street. I wonder… my brother's getting into CNC with his 3D printer, and I've still those cream Alps needing a home. Metal's beyond his tooling, but softer things might go quite a treat with quieter switches. Maybe I can summon my inner Jony Ive for a custom shell design…

chorb wrote: 19 Feb 2022, 19:17

photekq wrote: 17 Feb 2022, 23:01 This one took a month to sell at 450, this one took 2 and a half months to sell at 450 and was listed at 510 for about a month before that.

Both of these came with more extras than yours. I reckon you'd have better luck at 420, and in a more custom-centric marketplate.

Yeah, 500 pounds for a frog is a lot. Can't really blame the guy tho as he is selling under cost, but he paid a lot a lot. Frog is 400 usd incl shipping+vat(~480USD with vat, 353 pounds) from swagkeys on frog drops.

Not true, thing is this would be a price if you convert US dollars to UK punds, but when you actually buy it, customs and UK vat is added.

To explain more the price - I bought it from foreign guy, imported it to UK, paid £530, which included UK VAT, customs and hefty delivery, then added new Durock stabs for £20.
When I bought another Frog directly from Swagkeys, I paid £440 for barebone, plus pcb, plate, feet, tadpoles and foam, which is also included in that Frog that I'm selling.
I only paid £530 for first Frog as I couldn't buy it myself directly from Swagkeys - for almost a year those GBs were totally impossible to achieve, cause those were going out of stock in 10 seconds. That is why I bought and paid premium from re-seller and paid £530.
I added £20 stabs making full cost £550 and selling now for £479, which is already a loss for me but that's my loss I accepted.
I hope that makes sense to everyone here.

phinix wrote: 20 Feb 2022, 13:19 Not true, thing is this would be a price if you convert US dollars to UK punds, but when you actually buy it, customs and UK vat is added.

To explain more the price - I bought it from foreign guy, imported it to UK, paid £530, which included UK VAT, customs and hefty delivery, then added new Durock stabs for £20.
When I bought another Frog directly from Swagkeys, I paid £440 for barebone, plus pcb, plate, feet, tadpoles and foam, which is also included in that Frog that I'm selling.
I only paid £530 for first Frog as I couldn't buy it myself directly from Swagkeys - for almost a year those GBs were totally impossible to achieve, cause those were going out of stock in 10 seconds. That is why I bought and paid premium from re-seller and paid £530.
I added £20 stabs making full cost £550 and selling now for £479, which is already a loss for me but that's my loss I accepted.
I hope that makes sense to everyone here.

Aye it's totally understandable - wanting to get your money back. I don't think your price is unfair at all. Hell, even if you were asking for 550, it wouldn't be unfair. But whether or not you'll actually sell it for that price is another question, that's the only reason I posted in the first place - to show recent sales from within the UK which you might not have seen.

In your situation, most people would've requested that the value be marked as $50 on customs, which would have saved a lot. Totally illegal of course! I would never endorse doing such a thing. But that's what people do.

Muirium wrote: 20 Feb 2022, 11:10 I either forgot or never knew our very own Sixty was as into it. He's the DT link.

photekq wrote: 19 Feb 2022, 23:19 One of the very first informative posts about these keyboards made in English, written by the co-founder of this very website - sixty. As a side note, sixty is the reason I fell so deeply into these keyboards. He is entirely responsible for stoking my passions for both vintage Cherry keyboards, and these Korean customs. Thanks for that, sixty.

Don't tell me you only skim read it Mu!

Muirium wrote: 20 Feb 2022, 11:10 I've a little hunk-of-aluminium Lambo case for my blue Alps 64. Cost me all of a few sheets on Amazon, so I'm not comparing, but in the uncanny metal stakes it does lend a certain unexpected character to that wee keyboard. It's as heavy in the hand as my Realforce. It always seem wrong, in a delightful way, when you pick it up. Doesn't hurt being fairly shiny, too.

It's a different experience when you've got something CNC'd and anodised, to be honest. Laser cut metal cases are cool, but they rarely convey feelings through their aesthetics. They always look a bit rough, and not in an enjoyable way. Just rough. The CNC'd rectangles are a lot more elegant.

Super convenient way to make a custom though! Hell, I'll be making a layered acrylic case in the coming weeks.

Here's the case in question. Not a laser cut layer cake, but nothing super high end either. Think it's probably cast aluminium with a sand blasted finish. I just should have got it anodised in black, to contrast better with the off-white Apple PBT caps on my Alps 64. Natural alu looks better to me, but needs pearlier white caps to match. Anyway, I got it because high profile cases speak to me, unlike the cap-underside exposing low edged stuff. Guess I'm a little old-school that way.

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price drop