deskthority

Guten Tag fellow forumers !

I require wisdom of German neighbors who use Neo2 layout. The french dvorak open source layout's community who creates the bépo wants to create another version more mature and more methodical than the actual one.

We are thinking about doubling AltGr and making a layer as the „Ebene Vier” so we need your feedback about this layout.
It can be a general feedback or more specific about points described, any advice is good to take.

Viel Danke für die Anwort !

(yes I know, my German skill is very small)

Well, I REALLY like layer 3. Every layout should have it!
Layer 4 I use only rarely but mostly because I dislike the modifier positions. And the arrow keys really aren't that far away. And you have to keep those modifiers pressed all the time.
I also HATE layers 5 and 6. They contribute nothing that is of any use to me but prevent me from using some shortcuts like ctrl+shift+- (go forward in history in visual studio).

To sum this up: Yes, add a fourth layer. It's nice to have sometimes. When you do, put the ESC key in a more convenient position. And the modifiers as well. I think the windows keys might be decent alternatives (just one key in from ctrl) but the implications need to be considered in more detail.

What do you want to know? I really like the 4th neo layer, especially the arrow keys. Sadly those are pretty much the only thing making the layout somewhat incompatible with ANSI keyboards, those don’t have the key necessary for them. I really don’t want to miss them. The numpad is a bit hard to get used to, but the arrow keys are incredibly useful and easy to use.

We’ve got some Neo discussions in the German subforum:
http://deskthority.net/german-discussions-f16/
Not much about the layout itself, though.

Icarium wrote:I also HATE layers 5 and 6. They contribute nothing that is of any use to me but prevent me from using some shortcuts like ctrl+shift+- (go forward in history in visual studio).

Huh? Layer 5 and 6 are always with Mod3 which programs like autohotkey don’t recognize anyway. ctrl is untouched.

Left windows key for mod 4 would be nice for Neo, too, so that it stays ANSI compatible.

First of all, thank you for the quick answers !

Icarium wrote: Layer 4 I use only rarely but mostly because I dislike the modifier positions. And the arrow keys really aren't that far away. And you have to keep those modifiers pressed all the time.

That a problem we thought and we'll certainly make a "Num Lock" for this layer.

Icarium wrote: I also HATE layers 5 and 6. They contribute nothing that is of any use to me but prevent me from using some shortcuts like ctrl+shift+- (go forward in history in visual studio).

In the actual version, we have greek letters within the deadkey "μ" in AltGr+g so we don't have this issue but this letter is just over AltGr and it's not great :/ Personally, I rarely use greek letters.

Icarium wrote: To sum this up: Yes, add a fourth layer. It's nice to have sometimes. When you do, put the ESC key in a more convenient position. And the modifiers as well. I think the windows keys might be decent alternatives (just one key in from ctrl) but the implications need to be considered in more detail.

The're a lot of vim users so the Escape key should have a better position in this layer

Zehkul wrote:What do you want to know? I really like the 4th neo layer, especially the arrow keys. Sadly those are pretty much the only thing making the layout somewhat incompatible with ANSI keyboards, those don’t have the key necessary for them. I really don’t want to miss them. The numpad is a bit hard to get used to, but the arrow keys are incredibly useful and easy to use.

Yes, since the first layout creation we avoid to putt some crucial fonctions on <LSGT> and <BKSL> because of a will of ANSI compatibilities and in our discussion about the example of Neo this point appeared to be an issue.

Zehkul wrote:We’ve got some Neo discussions in the German subforum:
german-discussions-f16/
Not much about the layout itself, though.

I see the thread just after I create this one but as I said I really suck in German (learned during 8 years but I was a bad student)

Yeah, I'm really happy with the Neo Layers as well. I got used to using the fourth layer on ANSI layout as well, on trying the Realforce from 002, and using my US G84-4100. (You know, you can use the right Alt as Mod4 as well, fellow Neo-typists?)
I never want to miss layer 3 anymore. This is the most fantastic thing for programming ever invented. Layer 4 is really great on small keyboards, and Layers 5 and 6 are great as well, as I make notes on my Notebook in a plain text editor, so it comes really handy to be able to type greek letters and other mathematical symbols. (√,∫,ℤ,ℝ,ℂ,ℕ, etc.)

Also I think the modifier positions are perfect. I don't know how layers 5 or 6 could prevent combinations like ctrl+shift+-, if you use the - right of the 0 on Layer 1. Most other combinations are possible as well.

Also: actually every layer in Neo has a lock too. Normally pressing both Modifiers for a layer at the same time should activate a layer lock. Sadly not all Linux xkbmap files implement this feature.

RC-1140 wrote:Blabla I generally agree with...
Also I think the modifier positions are perfect.

I may be doing it wrong but I press AltGr with the thumb of my right hand while staying on the home row and that is quite uncomfortable.

Edit: Using ctrl+shift+- with the - on the top row doesn't work either because I get ...damn can't display it here.
looks like this -- sort of...but one long dash only
(Another "character" I have absolutely no use for and that is only good for messing things up if you occasionally press them by accident and whatever you're inserting into cannot handle it.)

I make excessive use of hotkeys in various games, and ctrl + shift + whatever works, always.
I’ve rather got problems with games not responding to the scan codes but to actual letters. Even starcraft 2. That’s a hassle, but you can’t help it. :-/

RC-1140 wrote:Yeah, I'm really happy with the Neo Layers as well. I got used to using the fourth layer on ANSI layout as well, on trying the Realforce from 002, and using my US G84-4100. (You know, you can use the right Alt as Mod4 as well, fellow Neo-typists?)

Yes, but that needs 2 hands. The additional ISO key, ><, is just so incredibly comfortable for that. You could remap it to left windows, though. That’s about as comfortable.

Vierax wrote:That a problem we thought and we'll certainly make a "Num Lock" for this layer.

Locked layer only? I don’t know, that would really kill the 4th layer for me. I use it very often but not for a very long time, usually 2-3 characters. Example: Typing an address into the address bar of firefox. I type „de“, hit arrow down + enter and firefox opens deskthority. Arrow down + enter is holding >< down and then pressing a and p (d and v qwerty). Nothing is faster, I hardly use bookmarks any more. Even more fun: Computerbase. I type co + enter, which is fast and only needs one hand.
And the numpad comes in quite handy for typing even short numbers, for example Cherry g80. g80 is fun to type, you hit g, hit mod4 and then g again + space. Etc. That’s why I love the 4th layer, you don’t move your hands at all. Even the number row seems so far away once you’re used to this. The arrow keys? Goodness no, I’d never use those.

I don‘t know if I’d use a layer lock at all. If I really need the arrow keys/numpad longer, I’ve still got it on my keyboard. Different story for TKL/poker sized keyboards, but those are the minority anyway. (And the 4th layer rocks even more on those keyboards anyway )

Esc position is really great in Neo too, by the way. The 4th layer is probably the best thing about neo altogether.

I didn't mean locked layer only, it will be doubling the layer modifier (left and right) and adding a layer lock, maybe under the left hand.

Thank you all of you for replied