deskthority

Warning: I talk about golf, wine and other things that will certainly bore you for no reason.

I have been quite curious about the Cooler Master Novatouch ever since it was teased by Carter in a thread almost one year ago but as primarily a Realforce 87U (45G) user I opted not to buy it immediately … that is until I managed to catch two of these babies on sale (yea, I'm not special like you the rest of you guys, I had to pay for my Novas)

I’m quite curious to see how the Novatouch stacks up against the Realforce 87U
The Realforce 87U has a very industrial look and feel - in other word’s it’s boring and isn’t designed with appearance in mind. It’s comes in an ordinary, but well-presented cardboard box. It’s a proper enthusiast keyboard for a workplace. Also don’t forget the unforgettable “good feeling of oneness with cup rubber”.

The Novatouch is packaged in a sleek box with a nice modern touch. Aesthetically, the Novatouch looks like a regular ole tenkeyless. The Cooler Master branding is still a bit childish which quite a shame is since the Novatouch is CM’s foray into a more premium line of keyboards.

There’s also some o-rings (Wah why?) and hey a keycap puller that won’t scratch your keys (the RF 87U’s keycap puller was notorious for this – don’t use it)! There are no dip switches on the Novatouch. The 87U has dip switches, although I personally don’t use them or haven’t yet had the right opportunity to do so. There’s also no caps lock indicator but I think this makes a lot of sense – how many times have you bought a custom keyset which comes with a caps lock that ends up obscuring your light anyways?

Since I really like my Realforce 87u, I thought it would interesting to see how the Novatouch stacks up.
The Novatouch is not as large as the 87U and it’s certainly lighter. While the 87U has a sturdy fixed cable with a 3 path grommet, the Novatouch uses a nice removable micro usb cable. Despite its convenience, I always feel that removable cables introduce more break points. This isn’t really anything to dwell on though. So far, so good. This is definitely a noticeable improvement over some of the older CM storm keyboards. The overcall case and board feels solid.

The standard keys are ABS. Although I feel the logo and branding does the premier image a slight injustice, these keycaps are particularly egregious and betray the premium image the Novatouch. I know the Novatouch is designed for enthusiast that hoard aftermarket keycaps like survivalists that hoard supplies in their underground bunkers in the face of an imminently not-occurring apocalypse but still common make these keycaps cleaner.

At this point, I’m looking at my Realforce 87U which a nice but industrial looking board. It gives a sublime, premium experience straight out the box and it comes with topre keycaps (which are overall some of the nicest caps you can get … except for the abs spacebar). The Novatouch is probably feeling a bit underwhelming at this point. Well, despite how great topre keycaps are, it’s not easy to obtain a replacement set and most aftermarket topre keysets aren’t being produced anymore. I’d love a nice set of blank red topre keycaps but I can’t find that anywhere. That’s where the Novatouch starts to shine.

Putting thicker PBT keys on the Novatouch makes quite a big difference. It provides the Novatouch with a steady typing experience that the ABS keys simply don’t provide. Typing with the thicker pbt keys gives a similar feeling to typing on my Realforce 87U. The Novatouch still sounds a bit louder and I would probably still give my Realforce 87U a slight edge over the Novatouch in terms of feeling. I think this probably because the Realforce 87U is heavier, heftier and just feels more solid. The 87U is also bigger though.

There’s pro/cons and tradeoffs between the 87U and Novatouch. Arguable the perceptible quality of the 87U is a bit higher than the Novatouch. I feel that despite how industrious it looks, the Realforce 87U is still more refined and nuanced than the Novatouch.
As many of you expected, the RF 87U offers a better out of the box experience and the Novatouch offers you the Topre experience with your keycap collection that you've slowly built up across the years. I wouldn't say the Novatouch is more "future-proof" because it accepts cherry mx stems - there's simply no such thing as future proofing a keyboard. There's always going to a nice new custom keyboard or an interesting new release that will simply tip over your lack of self control.

I think I also forgot to mention that the Novatouch only takes keycaps with the cherry mx stem and not Topre keycaps but you probably already knew that anyways

If you're on a budget or you simply aren't into changing keycaps then the RF 87U is probably a better bet for you. If you've already wasted enough money on keycaps that are just taking up space then they now have a new home in the Novatouch.

The Topre industry has been relatively stagnant. For better or worse, we’ve been stuck with HHKB and Realforce. Leopold also has the 660C and Noppoo has some sort of capacitive switch model. Despite its relatively minor shortcomings (which I would probably attribute to corporate, bureaucratic meddling), nothing has made quite an impact on the Topre world as the Novatouch.
The Novatouch certainly holds its own and now that you can’t complain about the lack of Topre Keycap availability – Topre’s back baby and you should buy one!

Here's where I go on a bit of a rant

I always characterize Cooler Master as kind of a bang-for-the buck kind of company. You get good quality for your money’s worth. They’ve never really had the reputation as a Titleist of anything they offer. Speaking of which I tried the new Titleist blades and I think Titleist has finally reached Mizuno level of forged blade perfection.
Anyways, for PC cases:
If you want a nice elegant aluminum case, you get a Lian Li.
If you want to break your wallet you get a Caselabs.

If you want something that doesn’t break your wallet, not truly exceptional but is good bang for your buck you get a Cooler Master.

Cooler Master is known for quickly implementing new designs (especially if you consider how Lian Li has been stagnant for the past 3 years or so). Cooler Master cases always reflect modern designs. If you tinker around with your PC you’ll really appreciate how their motherboard cutout is always current and there’s a lot of tiny things that Cooler Master implements correctly to make your cable management experience better. They also have tool-less hard drive bays and things like that. I remember the tool-less hard drive bays were really flimsy and hard to use. I ended up breaking a few of them trying to get my hard drive to “snap in”. These are kind of missed opportunities in what would otherwise be an exceptional steel PC case. It’s annoying certainly, but you don’t mind as much when you know you aren’t paying top dollar.

It’s a different story for the Novatouch because you are paying top dollar for this keyboard. The Novatouch unfortunately really reflects that aspect of Cooler Master and I think it’s a bit of a missed opportunity. I’m really inclined to blame bureaucracy or marketing people because Cooler Master always ends up showcasing a really nice product but then when it’s finally released it ends up as something else which has a diminished premium value.
It’s a missed opportunity.

Thorpie
I also wanted to talk about Topre.

Topre’s always has been synonymous with high quality and it’s been put on a pedestal over cherry mx. I personally don’t feel that is undeserved.

Some common criticisms of Topre:
• It feels like a rubber dome.
• It has a weird tactile bump that most people can’t gauge or get used to.
• It’s boring.

I liken Topre to wine tasting. When you start out, it all tastes awful and it all tastes the same. It’s expensive, it takes some time to pick up and understand. Often times you need to try various wines first before you can really appreciate what separates a good wine from the rest.

Appreciating higher standards is something very difficult.

Like wine, some people can inherently differentiate between a good wine and a bad one. Some people can’t. Ignorant people think it’s all the same. That’s something similar to keyboards. Some people think a rubber dome, mechanical or topre is all the same. Other people think Topre feels too similar to a rubber dome. Some people type slowly, some people touch type.
Your mind fools itself. I’m sure you’ve experienced something similar to this. You have some friends over that have never used a mechanical keyboard. They’ll use your keyboard and some of them will immediately realize the difference and others will think they’re typing on a regular, old keyboard until you point it out or show them a rubber dome with a mechanical side by side. It’s very odd but enlightening to see. Your mind does play tricks on you.

If you’ve tried Topre in the past and you’ve felt that it wasn’t for you. I don’t think it’s a bad idea to revisit. You might have tried it too early without developing a proper base-line first. Your tastes evolve and you might pick up on some subtleties that you wouldn’t have appreciated before.

Of course, just like how wines need to be properly paired with food, if you have particular needs and Topre doesn’t fit the bill don’t force yourself to like it.
I will say though, Topre isn't optimal for gaming.

Thanks for reading!
I really to go pack now. San Diego here I come!

I guess the question is this: if you can't tell the difference between a bad keyboard and a good one, does it matter? The reason I got into high-end keyboards was out of years of disappointment with products from the likes of Apple, Dell and Cherry. (My Silitek-made Dell QuietKey was nice, but it wore out and died.)

I am not a complete snob — plenty of cheap rubber dome keyboards are perfectly adequate. They're not as nice as high-end products, but they're adequate. My issue with cheap keyboards is primarily that if they fail, the replacement is not guaranteed to be the same; it could be better, but it could also be a lot worse. High-end products have proper specifications and use parts that are made by known organisations that remain on the market for decades. Cherry MX might not be as good now as it was in the 80s, but it's still here, and still made to the same specification. You don't get that certainty with whatever OEM Dell is using this week.

I don't expect perfection, but I do expect something where I get good feedback to my fingers (something Apple and Sony scissors really suck at), a sensible force curve (i.e. no need to slam the keys hard to get them to work at all), and something that doesn't shake, rattle, grind and graunch.

It depends on why you can't tell the difference. Is it because you've simply never used a mechanical keyboard before or is it because you have a hard time typing anyways to begin with?

I play alot of equipment based stuff (golf, tennis and pool - man I'm totally set for my retirement when I become old).
I would argue that once your improvement of yourself and the understanding of the game will necessitate an equipment change to the point where you start to need to be selective. It's really to say that of course a professional player has particular equipment needs and likewise it's easy to justify that need.

When you're starting out though (I'm still talking about golf, tennis and pool) it doesn't really matter because you suck anyways. Your form is probably terrible, you won't be able to consistently make good/solid shots, you have neither consistency nor control. Once you practice a bit and start to understand the game it starts to matter. Your equipment becomes something that is necessary to help you develop better habits. You'll probably need to change your equipment many times once you've become better and reached that point where you've surpassed the limits of your equipment.

It's really hard to know sometimes when you've reached that point. Of course, you see alot of beginners trying to imitate the pros or constantly switching their equipment. It doesn't matter for them because they're overall mechanics and skills is just too poor anyways. Practice makes better, equipment changes come with that.

So when it comes to keyboards. There's a few factors that come into play.
Can you type properly? How well do you know your way around the keyboard (can you touch type)? Are you a fast typist?

For alot of computer illiterate folks, it doesn't really make a difference because their mechanics aren't there. Sure they might appreciate how different a switch feels but they're still struggling to properly type. Keep in mind alot of people still type with only 2 fingers and don't know how to use the full 10 finger way.

If your typing mechanics aren't there, it just simply doesn't make a real difference. When it comes to somebody who does know how to type properly though. I think it makes a load of difference.

I think with keyboards your improved typing skills doesn't necessarily correlate or encourage equipment change. Most of us have probably tried multiple switches (red, blue, green, clear, black, browns and etc ) though, backplate, case-mounted, costar vs cherry stabilizers and things like that.

If you're able to tell the difference between these things on the spot, then you're certainly somewhat justified the amount of money you've spent on your boards. If you still can't tell the difference for even something as basic as a switch on a blind test, then you've probably wasted your money. If you also can't tell the difference between a very cheaply made mechanical keyboard and a better made keyboard then there's no point really.

The equipment doesn't make you better if you haven't mastered your basics.
So while a rubber dome is adequate, I mean we've all been forced to use one, it's just simply not optimal. You should be typing better on a mechanical keyboard.

I don't want to posit that you if you are a bad typist you shouldn't have a mechanical keyboard but I think it's reckless to spend more money on more keyboards before you've improved your typing skills. Your equipment should be about you needing it or developing your improved skills.

I think in the case of the experienced typist who just hasn't used a mechanical keyboard. I would say rubber domes encourage alot of bad habits. Folks tend to type very hard, and perhaps completely unnecessarily waste energy on their key presses. You see this alot when you have people over (particularly students that know how to type but have never used a mechanical before) and you feel like they're basically just slamming on your keyboard. I know when I switched to a mechanical keyboard I realized that and I type much more "efficiently" now. You can really see that difference sometimes. I think experienced typists (assuming they're not indifferent or ignorant) shoud invest in a nice high end keyboard because it will seamlessly channel their skills and further channel/increase their typing aptitude.

derp

davkol wrote: Searching for the switch mechanism Holy Grail is kinda pointless. OTOH, layouts (especially split) have actual health effects confirmed by countless studies (see Rempel 2008 for a brief summary).

As I've said before, you're pretty cool and helpful but why do you always make such dismissive, sweeping generalizations without considering the overall subject matter and then harp on ergonomics. You've done this alot when people just want to talk about a particular mouse and then you'll come in and object to the use of ergonomic because the mouse isn't truly ergonomic like a ergonomic trackball or one of those things you use for CAD. People will then say dude lay off, ergonomic just means right handed of course we don't actually think it's "ergonomic". You'll say blah blah blah it's false marketing and misleading. I don't man, it's like sometimes you bother to carefully read or consider the subject matter of a discussion. Nobody said anything about the holy grail of switches.

davkol wrote: Speaking of blind tests, wine perception changes depending on provided information about price.

Therein lies the difference between a master and a charlatan.
Plot twist, I charged you 200 bucks for some two buck chuck.

derp

Sometimes the snobbery is the point. I know next to nothing about wine, but a good malt is right down my street… and straight off into the realm of hopeless subjectivity, where no reason dare show itself. There are plenty of things in life where personal preference is all there is. And keyboard switches are very much among them. One person's pleasure is another person's pain.

As for the NovaTouch, I'm one of the lucky buggers who got to test for free, and I have six months experience of it now, unbelievably! So I have plenty to write about that, once I'm done taking more pictures. The final production version ANSI model just turned up at my place yesterday. It's a very interesting board, important even, but far from perfect. Expect another wall of text while some other guy comes to terms with it!

I don't really remember that thread.

About the ergonomics thing though, it might be repetitive but the overall point of that tale still holds true in that you are arguing and advocating things in an improper context.

You are essentially arguing apples and oranges. We're talking about people perceive switches, craftsmanship and quality but you're talking about layouts.

The layout is not a benefit of a mechanical keyboard though. Simply speaking you can have a split keyboard which is a rubber dome and you could just as easily put a mechanical switch on that sort of layout which has the most beneficial to the human body. Again this is why I say that your arguments are often non sequitur and have no bearing or rather consideration of the subject at hand.

Your might as well go into a car thread where BMW and Mercedes owners are debating about their cars is and then tell them to buy a Tesla because electric vehicles have many advantages. Or maybe you could go to the same thread and tell drivers to bike because biking a form of transportation, it's healthier, better for the environment and you all share the road.

derp

There's a difference, all right, between Topre and MX. Anyone should be able to feel it, too. But the subjective bit I mean is which one's better? That's all down to taste.

derp

davkol wrote: I have absolutely no problem with popularity contests or discussing engineering aspects of keyboards, these are perfectly fine. However, what's bugging me are claims like

When it comes to somebody who does know how to type properly though. I think it makes a load of difference.

without any basis. If you have any notable empirical evidence, I'm eager to read about it. (BTW I kinda agree with your statement about excessive use of force on rubber domes, although the same thing applies to certain mechanical switches.)

OTOH, there's plenty of evidence, when it comes to physical layouts, thus it makes sense to deal with split layouts first, mechanisms second.

davkol wrote: I have absolutely no problem with popularity contests or discussing engineering aspects of keyboards, these are perfectly fine. However, what's bugging me are claims like

When it comes to somebody who does know how to type properly though. I think it makes a load of difference.

without any basis. If you have any notable empirical evidence, I'm eager to read about it. (BTW I kinda agree with your statement about excessive use of force on rubber domes, although the same thing applies to certain mechanical switches.)

OTOH, there's plenty of evidence, when it comes to physical layouts, thus it makes sense to deal with split layouts first, mechanisms second.

It really bothers me when you don't properly use your intuition in a conversation, criticize somebody else with an overly argumentative statement and then don't hold yourself to the same standard.

It's fine to disagree with somebody else but the way you go about it is so sanctimonious and argumentative.

davkol wrote: IME most of these hobbies impose a slippery slope, a sort of an addiction, e.g., trying better and better switches, while condemning the previous steps to oblivion. It isn't necessary to take this path though. I'm thinking of something along the lines of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance… or perhaps consider an obstacle (I hate white Alps!) to be a challenge (can I learn to type fluently on white Alps?). That's the hobbyist perspective; as an user, I don't think it matters at all.

"without any basis. If you have any notable empirical evidence, I'm eager to read about it.'

Guess this one's going on a while…

Oops.

Well how else am i going to break in my Nova and get my money's worth?

There are ways…

http://10fastfingers.com/share-badge/1_BQ

I must admit I'm not as skilled a typist as you would let near a nice set of pro golfclubs! Still haven't learned proper 10 finger touch typing. Although at least I'm not looking at the keyboard…

I can be a bit faster than that, though. Just my first shot.

derp

Did you know soft psychology isn't science?
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/28/magaz ... wanted=all

derp

It was. Exactly same research method, which is fundamentally flawed. That kind of "science" is dead.

derp

Hmmm? Here's the Lee and Tsai research:
http://rady.ucsd.edu/docs/seminars/Tsai-paper.pdf
They make hypotheses and then use experiments on groups of students to verify it. Same method. This introduces a possible pollution/corruption in the result, which is the researchers themselves. In short, it is in their strong interest to have the hypotheses proven true instead of false. The problem is known and accepted, only the amount of it isn't. When someone gets caught, they are put away as rogue exceptions. But it's more like 10%, 25% or 50% than whether it's under or above 1%. So this means even if you take some honest research as a premise, it's still useless because you don't know if it's polluted or not - as there is so much pollution it can't be statistically ignored. And then, even if the research is actually good, there remains all the references, of which a percentage will be polluted, on which conclusions are also based. So the good research is cross-polluted by the bad research. Not only Stapel's own research was rendered useless, but also the much larger body of all research where his work was referenced, making him the enemy of a lot of his former colleagues who saw their work vanish in a puff of smoke. It is a fundamental current problem in science.

My favorite keyboard to type on (as opposed to the ones I just enjoy looking at) is a rusty old IBM XT that I paid $5 for. It has what most people consider a horrible layout. I didn't even put any effort into restoring it that I can take satisfaction in. Where does that fit into the prevailing scientific theory?

Clearly fixing the layout problems of a standard keyboard makes a larger difference for someone with existing repetitive stress injuries, or who types a lot, than just swapping the switches, and probably makes a substantial difference for long-term efficiency, too.

But that doesn’t mean that switches don’t matter. The tactile and audio response, stiffness, and character of a switch make a quite noticeable difference in typing speed and accuracy, for me (not to mention enjoyment; sometimes the more enjoyable switch is less accurate/efficient, but that’s okay). The typing speed difference between a bad rubber dome and my favorite sorts of mechanical switches is probably about 25–30% or maybe even higher. It’s possible that with substantial practice that gap could be reduced, but what’s the point? Keyboards are a trivial expense, when used for work every day.

I doubt there’s any “switch mechanism Holy Grail”, insofar as different people have different hand strength and flexibility, and different preferences, but that doesn’t mean that small details about the switch feel don’t make a real difference.

(Disclaimer: I don’t personally like MX or Topre switches.)

The switches closest to the Holy Grail for me are the IBM capacitive buckling spring, as found in IBM Model F keyboards, and Topre 55g, as found in Realforce 87u 55g keyboards (available in black or white). I also like the Topre switches in the HHKB Pro 2, RF 87u 45g, and Leopold FC660C.

Unfortunately, the CM Novatouch was a disappointment in several respects, including the sound and feel of its hybrid Topre switches. Nevertheless, it is compatible with Cherry mx keycaps, and I do like the Novatouch better than any Cherry mx keyboard I have tried (and this includes many, with most of the main types of mx switches, e.g., black, blue, brown, clear, green, and red). Note, however, that Cherry mx switches are my least favorite, by a large margin.

Must say that this thread was well time spent reading

Myself a wine and malt drinking, golfplaying, Jaguar driving, wristwatch collecting, LianLi owning, Realforce typing guy and appritiat all your reflections. Ouf sounds like if I am 75 years old

It is all down to his own taste. After trying the HHKB for the first time I was totally sold - topre was my switch of choice even if the actual keyboard layout was a bit strange and not my cup of tea.

Have tested and still use from time to time Cherry MX variants and IBM BS. Now running Realforce 88 and 105 on a daily basis and have similar feelings as the1onewolf, a bit industrial and "boring" and want to give the Nova a try.

All you opinions are well noted and much appreciated.

Recently, I bought two KBP V60 keyboards with Matias switches: Matias Click and Matias Quiet. I have now added these to my short list of favorite switches. Both of these Matias switches provide excellent tactile feedback, but I tend to favor the Matias Click for the added aural feedback. However, if I need to type quietly, the Matias Quiet is the most silent mechanical keyboard switch I have encountered -- even quieter than my HHKB Pro 2 Type-S.