refining a compact layout

[matt3o]

I'm doing my best to find a way to have as many layouts as possible available. I'm spending a lot of time (and money) in prototypes, cnc, laser cut. Unfortunately production for these prototypes is slow, but we are getting there. Probably the easiest and cheapest is the "sandwich" case (laser cut), you can have it in alu, steel, acrylic, wood, ... or a mix of all of them.

The plate itself is not a big deal, I can have even just 1 laser cut plate for around €50 (in stainless steel), of course if you order more you pay less, but at that price you could have your very own super weird layout if you want.

Regarding the PCB we are probably going to have 1 supporting the most obvious layouts, but you could wire the keys directly and spare the PCB cost if you want. With a solid steel plate is totally feasible.

[vivalarevolución]

Also, how do you guys do the keyboard layout editing? I would like to try a design or two.

And thanks for all the work on this project.

[matt3o]

I've been asked so many times about that I'm going to do a tutorial soon

[tlt]

Hi, I have decided that I'm going to make a wireless keyboard based your PCB and I like to help on the project. I will continue to experiment with some wireless stuff and try to have it compatible with your board. Maybe I can help out some with the PCB design or the firmware.

Posted this on the other forum to help out with there effort on the GH60:

Hi, I have been planing to make a custom wireless keyboard and have done some experiments with the Bluetooth & LiPo Add-On for Makey Makey and a Atmega32u4 breakout also from Sparkfun. With this board you get HID Bluetooth, battery charging and powering of BT module and controller on the same board. I'm running the controller at 16Mhz on 3,7 volt and that seems to work fine. Sparkfun is doing the same thing with the Makey Makey. Atmega32u4 breakout have a 3,3 volt jumper and It is suppose to run fine att 16Mhz even thought it's overclocking it.

I haven't found the schematics for the GH60 but It wound be good to have the UART, I2C on the expansion port.

[vivalarevolución]

Alright I got ambitious today and sketched this when I had some free time. I apologize in advance for the roughness of my drawing, but I just threw this together on a spare piece of paper this afternoon and I don't have any clue how to make a nice colored layout on my computer at the moment.

This would be my ideal design for a Mac compact layout, integrating the big-ass enter into a compact board and turning the Caps Lock key into a Function key, which would be useful for reaching most of the function layer in the top row.

EDIT: replaced original picture with cleaner picture and move FN back to bottom left corner, CTRL to Caps Lock's usual spot.

compact layout big enter.JPG (57.17 KiB) Viewed 5042 times

[Trev]

Alright I got ambitious today and sketched this when I had some free time. I apologize in advance for the roughness of my drawing, but I just threw this together on a spare piece of paper this afternoon and I don't have any clue how to make a nice colored layout on my computer at the moment.

This would be my ideal design for a Mac compact layout, integrating the big-ass enter into a compact board and turning the Caps Lock key into a Function key, which would be useful for reaching most of the function layer in the top row.

Compact keyboard layout JPG.jpg

Respectfully, I don't personally see many advantages with this layout. The backspace is a key that can end up being hit in rapid succession for quick corrections. Any of the fingers on my right hand are faster than my left thumb for doing double-taps or beyond.

With the enter key, it seems like it has been made larger purely to fill the space saved by taking away half of your spacebar. Is there an actual typing advantage with it being so large?

[vivalarevolución]

Respectfully, I don't personally see many advantages with this layout. The backspace is a key that can end up being hit in rapid succession for quick corrections. Any of the fingers on my right hand are faster than my left thumb for doing double-taps or beyond.

With the enter key, it seems like it has been made larger purely to fill the space saved by taking away half of your spacebar. Is there an actual typing advantage with it being so large?

Thanks for the input.

I have a couple keyboards with the big enter key, and I have grown to enjoy using it over a standard size. I know some folks around here like the retro styling of the big enter. I don't find a normal enter key to be a problem, but I thought it would be an interesting possibility.

With regards to the backspace, I have used a Maltron and a Kinesis, which have sold me on the advantages of thumb keys. I have stopped using my left thumb for spacebar even on standard layouts. To me, the ideal compact keyboard makes more use of the thumbs than the space bar. The Backspace/DEL on the left would even some of the load of heavily used keys--enter, backspace, DEL, arrows--from the right hand to the left hand.

Also, with a FN key accessible with the left pinky finger in the usual Caps Lock space, I can put DEL on the function layer of the backspace and use DEL without moving my hands from the home row.

However, now that I mimic the location of your Happy Hacking-like backspace vs. my left thumb backspace, I understand your argument. The move of the Backspace down a row was a great idea for this keyboard design.

[Trev]

Thanks for the input.

I have a couple keyboards with the big enter key, and I have grown to enjoy using it over a standard size. I know some folks around here like the retro styling of the big enter. I don't find a normal enter key to be a problem, but I thought it would be an interesting possibility.

With regards to the backspace, I have used a Maltron and Kinesis, which all have sold me on the advantages of thumb keys. To me, the ideal compact keyboard makes more use of the thumbs than the space bar. Also, with a FN key accessible with the left pinky finger in the usual Caps Lock space, I can put DEL on the function layer of the backspace and use DEL without moving my hands from the home row.

However, now that I mimic the location of your Happy Hacking-like backspace vs. my left thumb backspace, I understand your argument. The move of the Backspace down a row was a great idea for this keyboard design!

The large enter has some nostalgic/retro appeal, I won't argue. However, I think it's more important to be able to justify the space every key takes up on a layout that is 60-65% in size, especially in that location.

The HHKB backspace was a shock for me. I expected it to take at least a week to fully re-program that burnt in muscle memory. It actually only took 2 days before going back to a stock ANSI backspace made no sense at all. It also makes you realise how silly the jumbo ANSI backslash key is, sitting there all fat and smug looking:D

To those who haven't experienced the HHKB backspace setup: don't try it unless you want every other ANSI board to feel like a broken design.

[Trev]

If we went for a completely custom spacebar size, there's this Mac option:

I would assume it's probably impractical to use such an odd spacebar.


Perhaps this is a better compromise. It still uses all standard keys:

That's my favourite so far.

[vivalarevolución]

What is the smallest spacebar that is widely available? I'm thinking of what would maximize space for the bottom row modifiers. A 5-unit spacebar would be great.

[tlt]

I think a thumb backspace is good, I use that on my hhkb JP and it allows me to not move my hands from the home row to hit it. I use backspace to delete typos and small errors so I mostly hit it once or twice and mark bigger text blocks and delete them. I also have a shift and enter for the thumb on the bottom row and I like it. Thumbs are great for holding down modifiers as they are strong and more independent from the other fingers on the hand.

Edit: I don't think the thumb is slow than other fingers. Look at console controllers and mobile phone keyboards. I think your able to tap faster by using more of the wrist and arm, not by moving the fingers faster.

[bearcat]

The large enter has some nostalgic/retro appeal, I won't argue. However, I think it's more important to be able to justify the space every key takes up on a layout that is 60-65% in size, especially in that location.

The HHKB backspace was a shock for me. I expected it to take at least a week to fully re-program that burnt in muscle memory. It actually only took 2 days before going back to a stock ANSI backspace made no sense at all. It also makes you realise how silly the jumbo ANSI backslash key is, sitting there all fat and smug looking:D

Trev, i'll see you your line of reasoning and take it one further; once you start adapting to the HHKB, the next step is a non-staggered layout at all, and after that, you start wondering how often you really hit those keys on the number row, and then you end up with Suka's brilliant minimal designs

join us! Join us!

[Trev]

I think a thumb backspace is good, I use that on my hhkb JP and it allows me to not move my hands from the home row to hit it. I use backspace to delete typos and small errors so I mostly hit it once or twice and mark bigger text blocks and delete them. I also have a shift and enter for the thumb on the bottom row and I like it. Thumbs are great for holding down modifiers as they are strong and more independent from the other fingers on the hand.

Edit: I don't think the thumb is slow than other fingers. Look at console controllers and mobile phone keyboards. I think your able to tap faster by using more of the wrist and arm, not by moving the fingers faster.

I find these ideas intriguing, but it seems like we'll need to keep things more conventional to gain acceptance, meet order quantities, etc. I can't imagine a huge line of people begging to be invoiced for such an exotic alternative to their ANSI keyboards. 60% boards are hugely popular, and this is really only a minor variation on that same idea.

In standard typing position my left thumb is definitely slower than the right ring or pinky finger.
For video game controllers, wasn't the left thumb usually tasked with slower movements like directional controls?

[tlt]

I like to see more unconventional custom keyboards but for this project I'm mostly looking for a standard ISO keyboard, I'll save the crazy stuff for the Hyper mini .

Your right, the primary had is faster, in my case its the left and I use game controllers without any problems and would not want to mirror it as I would have to relearn to use it. My thumbs are also slower at tapping on the keyboard, I think its because the thumb is moving sideways and the wrist is twisting. If I'm going to tap fast I keep the finger still and use the wrist and if I try to go even faster I use the whole arm, its the same for the thumb.

[matt3o]

I like the ANSI layout especially for coding, but to me the ISO enter (not the huge one though) is very good for usability. I'm a bit surprised that keyboard freaks in US are not even interest in trying it.

Regarding layout... let's try to keep it real remember that we also need space for the controllers (ie: we need a spacebar to get some real estate, without it we have to make the case bigger).

Edit: also tlt great find with the BT module!

[tlt]

Your doing a ISO version right?
How is the PCB coming along? It would be good to have the UART pins , one IO pin (to control sleep mode) and ground, vcc 5v on soldering pads to be able to add BT support.

[matt3o]

Yes ISO is coming in 16x5 variant. I found no way to have it with default staggering on 15x5

As far as I know the BT modules are 3v, so you need some kind of voltage regulator. Anyway a guy from this forum just started working on it. Hopefully we can have him add some headers for upgrades. The prototypes will be on breakout boards I guess though.

Hopefully tomorrow I should receive the first case prototype! Crossing fingers...

[tlt]

It has a regulator so that's fine. The vcc connect to USB power and the powering of the Atmega is needed so that the battery can take over when USB is disconnected.

It's a little hard to find a spot for the BT antenna if the case is made from aluminium and there is a mounting plate any ideas?

Is there space for lipo batteries somewhere?

[matt3o]

we would need to design another case for the wireless version I guess. The CNC one is super fit, you can't add a needle to it. The sandwich one is more relaxed, you can laser cut one more 3-5mm layer and you have plenty of room.

what component are you using for the BT? is the one you linked above?

[tlt]

Yes, it's the one I linked. I'm planing on doing a 3D-printed case for it with a touch pad on the side. I'm going to replace this keyboard:

k400.jpg (479.85 KiB) Viewed 5055 times

[vivalarevolución]

Ok here is my contribution to humanity, abandoning my big enter/thumb backspace pipe dream:

1.25/1/1.25 unit modifiers, with 6-unit spacebar (which can be obtained without custom order, right?)

compact layout 1.JPG (47.22 KiB) Viewed 5051 times

Basically the same as Matt3o most recent design, with a 1.5 unit Windows/Apple key to fill the dead space, standard-size spacebar, and FN key on far right.

compact layout 2.JPG (49.96 KiB) Viewed 5051 times

[matt3o]

very nice layout. Probably I should post what layouts we are going to cover at this point. I'll do that tomorrow.

We are probably going to have 3 main layouts with some derivatives. One will be the 15x5 ANSI only, the others will be 16x5 ISO and ANSI. Honestly I would prefer a 15.5x5 layout with smaller left tab/ctrl/shift and right backspace/enter. The only advantage I can see of a 16x5 is that you can use keycaps from other keyboards... except for the right shift actually.

thoughts?

[Trev]

Ok here is my contribution to humanity, abandoning my big enter/thumb backspace pipe dream:

1.25/1/1.25 unit modifiers, with 6-unit spacebar (which can be obtained without custom order, right?)

compact layout 1.JPG

Basically the same as Matt3o most recent design, with a 1.5 unit Windows/Apple key to fill the dead space, standard-size spacebar, and FN key on far right.

compact layout 2.JPG

Second one is really nice

The first layout there is an idea I almost tried, then realised it pushes left Command key much further away than any other Mac layout.

[Trev]

very nice layout. Probably I should post what layouts we are going to cover at this point. I'll do that tomorrow.

We are probably going to have 3 main layouts with some derivatives. One will be the 15x5 ANSI only, the others will be 16x5 ISO and ANSI. Honestly I would prefer a 15.5x5 layout with smaller left tab/ctrl/shift and right backspace/enter. The only advantage I can see of a 16x5 is that you can use keycaps from other keyboards... except for the right shift actually.

thoughts?

I'd put in my vote for 16x5, even though it's a little bit bigger. People love swapping and re-using keycaps. Makes the project more appealing to a wider audience, perhaps?

[vivalarevolución]

very nice layout. Probably I should post what layouts we are going to cover at this point. I'll do that tomorrow.

We are probably going to have 3 main layouts with some derivatives. One will be the 15x5 ANSI only, the others will be 16x5 ISO and ANSI. Honestly I would prefer a 15.5x5 layout with smaller left tab/ctrl/shift and right backspace/enter. The only advantage I can see of a 16x5 is that you can use keycaps from other keyboards... except for the right shift actually.

thoughts?

Also, put in my vote for a 16x5. What Trev said.

[vivalarevolución]

Ok here is my contribution to humanity, abandoning my big enter/thumb backspace pipe dream:

1.25/1/1.25 unit modifiers, with 6-unit spacebar (which can be obtained without custom order, right?)

compact layout 1.JPG

Basically the same as Matt3o most recent design, with a 1.5 unit Windows/Apple key to fill the dead space, standard-size spacebar, and FN key on far right.

compact layout 2.JPG

Second one is really nice

The first layout there is an idea I almost tried, then realised it pushes left Command key much further away than any other Mac layout.

Thanks. I kinda like keeping the Command key a bit larger than the Alt/Option key because that's how most Mac keyboards are. The different sizes of the modifiers helps with feel and I don't have to look down at my keyboard and search for them.

[Trev]

Thanks. I kinda like keeping the Command key a bit larger than the Alt/Option key because that's how most Mac keyboards are.

Yeah, and Mac keys are always so neglected in group buys. The world has enough keys with Windows logos printed on them.
(I wouldn't want an Apple/MacOS logo printed on a key either!)

[matt3o]

I'd put in my vote for 16x5, even though it's a little bit bigger. People love swapping and re-using keycaps. Makes the project more appealing to a wider audience, perhaps?

The right shift is not standard and (in your design) the backspace is down 1 row (so you miss the \| key). A standard DCS family keyset wouldn't work anyway.

[matt3o]

First Prototype!!!!

This one is laser cut with the sandwich technique. I must say... I'm totally in love with it!

Industrial looking, stainless steel, 65% layout waiting for the DSA Retro keys of course! Now to the soldering (a looong way to go)

Weight 1kg


Side by side with a Filco TKL


3 layers + plate. 13mm total height (1.5 + 5 + 5 + 1.5):


MX Blues ready! But I'm going to change the spacebar one with an MX Green and the arrows with MX brown or grey... will see.


Test with keycaps

[Icarium]

Don't really have anything to say but there is no "like" button so I'm just going to spell it out: Nice!