deskthority

Redmaus wrote:

davkol wrote: On a different note, many older keyboards were nearly unusable, because of binding stabilizers, even though the switches themselves felt fine.

My Fujitsu keyboard comes to mind.

Aw man, yeah Fujitsu Peerless! Worst binding stabs in the world xD .

derp

002 wrote: Non-clicky, tactile Hi-Tek Space Invaders.
I have one keyboard with them and it's atrocious. I'm not sure if it's just the particular example I have being old or something but the binding is just unbearable.

You probably have a bad example. I have a board of those that I rescued from the trash, and there's only really any binding on right shift, which is a known problem for Space Invader boards.

Ratfink wrote: You probably have a bad example. I have a board of those that I rescued from the trash, and there's only really any binding on right shift, which is a known problem for Space Invader boards.

Yeah -- I think so too. It was actually from Taobao...the only keyboard I've ever bought from there. I have another Hi-Tek board with clicky, black Space Invaders and it's very nice to use.

Ratfink wrote:
I have a board of those that I rescued from the trash, and there's only really any binding on right shift, which is a known problem for Space Invader boards.

White HI-Tek is about the only linear switch that I find pleasant, and the stability is one of the best attributes.

Too bad that they never really got the stabilizer wires right - just draping them over/across the switch body was never enough for the longer ones.

Space Invaders can get into a condition in which they bind a little fairly easily. Brand-new they don't bind. But non-new examples I've found tend to bind slightly, even on the normal keys. Absolutely no wobble though.

I've never tried the linear before. I don't really like how fragile the Hi-Tek switch is and the method they use to achieve tactility on their non-clickies makes me wonder just how consistent they are. Most people I know who've tried them do like them so maybe I just got really unlucky or I'm just abnormally fussy in this case.

The tactile space invader board I tried was also awful. But it was in pretty bad condition.

002 wrote:
Most people I know who've tried them do like them so maybe I just got really unlucky or I'm just abnormally fussy in this case.

No, they can get really bad.

Worse than Alps, and they are so fussy with tiny fragile parts that you would never want to attempt taking them apart and cleaning a whole board full of them.

But good ones are great.

002 wrote: I've never tried the linear before. I don't really like how fragile the Hi-Tek switch is and the method they use to achieve tactility on their non-clickies makes me wonder just how consistent they are. Most people I know who've tried them do like them so maybe I just got really unlucky or I'm just abnormally fussy in this case.

I like them in both variations, thanks to Chyros I was lucky to snag a clicky specimen which are rare around here.

fohat wrote:

002 wrote:
Most people I know who've tried them do like them so maybe I just got really unlucky or I'm just abnormally fussy in this case.

No, they can get really bad.

Worse than Alps, and they are so fussy with tiny fragile parts that you would never want to attempt taking them apart and cleaning a whole board full of them.

But good ones are great.

That's true, the metal "arms" being the weak link IMO.

002 wrote: I've never tried the linear before. I don't really like how fragile the Hi-Tek switch is and the method they use to achieve tactility on their non-clickies makes me wonder just how consistent they are. Most people I know who've tried them do like them so maybe I just got really unlucky or I'm just abnormally fussy in this case.

Tbh I've heard mixed reviews about the tactile version. Much more so than the linear and clicky space invaders. Some do like them though, they just meet with more criticism than the other designs, I think.

Honestly, I haven't even tried a tactile switch with a force curve similar to that of a good rubber dome like a BTC, NMB or Topre dome. The only thing that even comes close is the buckling spring design, as it takes advantage of tactility by the sudden drop of force when the spring buckles, similar to when a rubber dome buckles. But buckling springs are clicky, not tactile.

Here's that horrible switch that I was talking about.

Never seen anything like it Oo .

The only other keyboard to use this switch is the DEC LK201 I think. The assembly itself is beyond complicated, so I'm confused as to why these exist if they were made solely for lower pricing.

I'm also not sure if the keys are pad printed ABS or dye-sublimed PBT. The legends are rimmed, but the keys still have all of their texture, haven't yellowed at all and the lettering is nice and bold. Do rimmed dye-sub legends exist? I thought protective coating was only for pad-printed legends, but maybe I'm wrong. No labels on the keys for whether they are ABS or PBT.

No, dye sublimation shouldn't leave any rims, that's the whole point of it. In fact it doesn't impact the surface topology at all - it's invisible under SEM conditions, as I showed a while ago .

Why is everyone focused on listing their pet peeve mechanicals like Cherry MY or dirty white Alps? Those are bad, sure, but they're small potatoes. Here's my list:

ATM buttons suck: http://zestyping.livejournal.com/251102.html

Whatever is inside these things: https://www.flickr.com/photos/catherine ... 5689923596

Lasers wtf? Not a switch per se, but this is BAD! https://www.infovole.de/en/this-and-tha ... -keyboard/

And possibly the worst of all: http://www.dx.com/p/jue-ying-pu-wireles ... xCoN19XenM

Some of the worst are the ones on my garage door keypad. So much mashing involved to make sure they register.

As a keyboard community we think about keyboard switches typically, but you are right, there are worse switches. Like a switch from ice cream to sandwich

I must say that I haven't tried any usual suspects when it comes to bad switches and I only have experience with BS, MX and SKCM, and the worst I've tried have to be brown MX. Until yesterday, when old Chicony with clicky SKCM White arrived, and now I know firsthand what mess Alps switches can get when they wear out:
- click is silent, when typing fast it is drowned in keycap sounds
- pressing a key off centre often results in binding
- I think that sometimes upstroke is slow to occur as well

My SKCM Black AT101W seems like a best keyboard in the world when typing on it afterwards. All this is in line with everything others said, so when I catch some time off, I'll try to fix them - clean inside with air, modify the click leaf, lube the slider, maybe sand it's bottom with a fine sandpaper - but I'm not holding my breath.

keycap wrote: Here's that horrible switch that I was talking about.

Spoiler:

Oh wait, that's the keyboard I just reviewed, looks just like my Smith-Corona typewriter board! Yeah, I'd most certainly agree it is horrible beyond comparison xD .

do flexible rubber keyboards count in this thread?
I cannot even explain how horrible these things feel to me. I prefer typing on a tablet screen to these things

40 rubbers.
'nuff said.

I had an older foam and foil keyboard, and it made me want to break said keyboard. Sandpaper is the only way to explain it. Also whatever switch is in Atari 800xl, it gets really hard as you get half way down, and it binds off center.

Cherry MY - feels pretty bad and is exceptionally annoying ... I would give it 1/10 - just for not hurting my fingers.

The only thing which takes bad to another level is probably keyboard in new Apple Macbook (not pro / air). Its so bad - it hurts your fingers. If you get a chance - try it in a store - you will love all other keyboards on this planet just a bit more...

Edit: There is one good thing about new Macbook keyboard - typeface on the keys.

I prefer that board (a little) to the shit Apple puts in the Pro and Air. I have a Pro and its board is sloppy and wastes more z-axis space than the MacBook's.

Mind, I honestly prefer typing on any of the above compared to Cherry MY. It's a fucking travesty. What was their excuse? The switches aren't small, so it's not simple space saving like on laptops. They're easily the worst fullsize mechanical switch I've ever come across. Blech! And under such nice caps, too! (Before you notice the off-centre stems.)

OK Halvar, but the Sinclair ZX Speccy is such a good looking keyboard! True sub-60% and that rainbow. Wow. The layout alone is brilliant.

seebart wrote: OK Halvar, but the Sinclair ZX Speccy is such a good looking keyboard! True sub-60% and that rainbow. Wow. The layout alone is brilliant.

True sub-40%!

The photo does make it look kinda interesting. In reality it just looks crappy, and feels even worse.

Yup. A classic example of something simultaneously very well designed, and very poorly. Sure, the layout is a disaster (spacebar!!!) but the switches are as satisfying as typing on a desktop calculator. So very, very, miserably cheap. It was fantastically ahead of its time!

ZX81. Absolutely without exception the worst keyboards I have ever used were those of the Sinclair ZX81.
It's worse than it looks. As you might expect, it's a 3-layer membrane. As you might not expect, you have to press a considerable area of each 'key' down for the key to register. This is doubly difficult because the holes in the middle layer are quite small, much smaller than in any membrane-backed physical keyboard I've dismantled. You have to press down most of the area within the hole. On top of that, the top layer is two or three times as thick and stiff as it should be.

The first ZX81 I owned had a keyboard glued over this membrane, with keys like a spectrum's but more rigid. The keys pressed the membrane. It barely helped.

Regardless of the presence or absence of a keyboard over the membrane, "typing" on this slick-looking monstrosity required leaning on one key at a time while waiting to see if it registered on the screen. The only way I know the keyboard helped at all is it took maybe 10% longer for my fingers to hurt when using the keyboard rather than a membrane.

Second worst, and the worst with more than 2mm key travel:


© Bill Bertram, 2006

It's a real shame, because Atari's ST and XE ranges have the sexiest keycaps I have ever seen, but the STFM sub-range has the worst rubber domes I have ever used -- even compared to PS2 keyboards I bought new for just £1.50 in the '90s. They feel horrible! I tried to describe the sensation, but the phrase "zombie flesh" came to mind and I stopped thinking about it as fast as I could. The £1.50 PS2 boards just felt like they had excessively firm rubber domes; they were tiring to type on. The STFM made me glad for the presence of the hard plastic keycaps between my fingers and whatever was underneath, and they made my fingers sore like nothing else before or since!

I had an STE too. Its keys were nicer, but not terribly good. My Atari 130XE is similar to the STE: nicer than the STFM but not good.

There was also a Mega ST with a separate keyboard which I'm told had decent switches. I might try to get one to convert, some day. I love the keycaps and the slanted function keys, and I rather like the layout although it is too wide for me these days. I think ST keycaps might be Cherry-compatible, which suggests a way to render an STFM usable.

Edit: I shouldn't have missed this:

derzemel wrote: do flexible rubber keyboards count in this thread?

Spoiler:

I cannot even explain how horrible these things feel to me. I prefer typing on a tablet screen to these things

Not as horrible as opening up a cheap 90s keyboard and having a hundred thin-edged rubber domes go sproinglibling all over your fingers! That was a bad moment, but it was long enough ago that I can at the memory. I have a num/cursor pad of that type. It's a bit icky in use and I don't like picking it up, but years ago it seemed like such a design was the answer to the soreness of my heavily over-used fingers, so I bought two full-sized ones. I had to take them back to the shop because my name's not Helm Hammerhand! Unlike the keypad's very light action, the full-sized 'boards (sheets?) I bought made me feel like I had to engage in Extreme Screwdriving every day just so my fingers would be strong enough to press the keys. I began to wonder if manual laborers actually bought and used these things. They were made of rubber, and yet they challenged my masculinity!