So, what is yours, and, most importantly, why?
EDIT: I use colemak because it is (for me) the less finger- charging
What layout do you use?
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z3ta
- Location: Spain
- Main keyboard: IBM Model F 107
- DT Pro Member: -
I was just wondering what is the most spread keyboard layout between mechanical keyboard enthusiasts.
So, what is yours, and, most importantly, why?
EDIT: I use colemak because it is (for me) the less finger- charging
So, what is yours, and, most importantly, why?
EDIT: I use colemak because it is (for me) the less finger- charging
Last edited by z3ta on 07 Mar 2015, 20:44, edited 1 time in total.
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z3ta
- Location: Spain
- Main keyboard: IBM Model F 107
- DT Pro Member: -
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SL89
- ‽
- Location: Massachusetts, USA
- Main keyboard: CODE 104
- Main mouse: Logitech M570
- Favorite switch: Cherry MX Green
- DT Pro Member: 0095
All my boards are ANSI, namely because it is the most common layout in the US and also it is the easiest to get caps for.
I was playing around with Colemak and even Workman but some of the profile issues usally keep me on standard layout.
I was playing around with Colemak and even Workman but some of the profile issues usally keep me on standard layout.
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Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
First answer and we're already talking about physical and logical layouts!
I know the OP is really about QWERTY vs. the rest. But let's go on about the physical side instead…
ANSI - America
ISO - Europe
JIS - Japan
There's also Big Ass Enter to consider…
Big Ass
Essentially ANSI Enter and ISO Enter fused together into a… big ass Enter key, with Backspace split like on JIS to accommodate the lost key that behemoth sat down on. Big Ass is a Pain in the Arse, it's even a bother to stabilise right (typically needs two stabs, one horizontal, one vertical, both a nightmare to pull out or reintstall sometimes) and I could complain about it for ages!
In Europe, we mostly use ISO. Some of us prefer ANSI though, in my case for its looks and ergonomics: the symmetry of the Return key is more pleasing to me, and I don't have to reach out as far for it as with ISO. It's also so much easier to get nice caps for in group buys. Though there's a lot of fine vintage ISO caps out there, just not so much on the new side.
My favourite layout is none of the above, though. It's the HHKB, which is an evolution of ANSI, with a split Backspace key and right Shift. It's sublime as a 60%, something typical ANSI and ISO find quite awkward because they plain weren't optimised for it.
I know the OP is really about QWERTY vs. the rest. But let's go on about the physical side instead…
ANSI - America
ISO - Europe
JIS - Japan
There's also Big Ass Enter to consider…
Big Ass
Essentially ANSI Enter and ISO Enter fused together into a… big ass Enter key, with Backspace split like on JIS to accommodate the lost key that behemoth sat down on. Big Ass is a Pain in the Arse, it's even a bother to stabilise right (typically needs two stabs, one horizontal, one vertical, both a nightmare to pull out or reintstall sometimes) and I could complain about it for ages!
In Europe, we mostly use ISO. Some of us prefer ANSI though, in my case for its looks and ergonomics: the symmetry of the Return key is more pleasing to me, and I don't have to reach out as far for it as with ISO. It's also so much easier to get nice caps for in group buys. Though there's a lot of fine vintage ISO caps out there, just not so much on the new side.
My favourite layout is none of the above, though. It's the HHKB, which is an evolution of ANSI, with a split Backspace key and right Shift. It's sublime as a 60%, something typical ANSI and ISO find quite awkward because they plain weren't optimised for it.
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Hypersphere
- Location: USA
- Main keyboard: Silenced & Lubed HHKB (Black)
- Main mouse: Logitech G403
- Favorite switch: Topre 45/55g Silenced; Various Alps; IBM Model F
- DT Pro Member: 0038
My favorite is HHKB:
When not using an actual HHKB (Pro 2), I use Karabiner to remap the keyboard to something as close as possible to the HHKB Pro 2 layout.
If you are asking about QWERTY vs Dvorak or Colemak, etc., I use QWERTY because this is the layout on which I learned to type. I've considered trying other layouts, but I type well enough with QWERTY so that there is no compelling reason to change. In addition, I like to have the legends on the keycaps to indicate the layout I am using. Switching to a non-QWERTY layout would create problems with keycap profiles except with those that have the same profile on each row, such as IBM buckling spring keyboards, DSA profile, or chicklet/laptop keyboards.
Apart from IBM buckling spring keyboards (which achieve a stepped profile by using a curved plate), I prefer a sculpted profile of some sort, such as DCS, Topre, OEM, or Cherry.
- HHKB.png (99.79 KiB) Viewed 10848 times
If you are asking about QWERTY vs Dvorak or Colemak, etc., I use QWERTY because this is the layout on which I learned to type. I've considered trying other layouts, but I type well enough with QWERTY so that there is no compelling reason to change. In addition, I like to have the legends on the keycaps to indicate the layout I am using. Switching to a non-QWERTY layout would create problems with keycap profiles except with those that have the same profile on each row, such as IBM buckling spring keyboards, DSA profile, or chicklet/laptop keyboards.
Apart from IBM buckling spring keyboards (which achieve a stepped profile by using a curved plate), I prefer a sculpted profile of some sort, such as DCS, Topre, OEM, or Cherry.
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Mal-2
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
- Main keyboard: Cherry G86-61400
- Main mouse: Generic 6-button "gaming mouse"
- Favorite switch: Probably buckling spring, but love them Blues too
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
Dvorak, for the last 19 years and counting. Why? Much more speed and much less fatigue/pain.
The way Dvorak scatters the QWERTY-optimized control keys all over the place, and puts some of them next to ones you almost never want to use deliberately, is the reason for those top three rows in blue. Those are all CTRL-something shortcuts, and laid out in QWERTY.
Condensed layouts, and this keyboard in particular, are a much newer thing for me. They don't help speed (in fact they may hurt it slightly), but again they reduce the fatigue factor associated with having the mouse way out to the side.
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Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Dvorak. (Horrible, antiquated, Dvorak! Try Colemak for style instead.)
I can recognise them, but I can't use them. Well, not yet. I had a Model F rearranged into Colemak (very easy with IBM row-agnostic caps) but as the gurus say: don't learn a new layout by looking at the keys, unless you plan to keep looking at them forever!
The thing I like about Colemak is its philosophy of minimal change. The bottom row in particular - ZXCV - is deliciously sane for those of us who use clipboard shortcuts hundreds of times a day from the keyboard. But the ever so slightly moved S key drives me nuts. I haven't managed to switch but I haven't really given it a fair chance yet.
It certainly feels efficient compared to QWERTY, as my fingers stay on home row much more. But I already learned to type, damnit!
I can recognise them, but I can't use them. Well, not yet. I had a Model F rearranged into Colemak (very easy with IBM row-agnostic caps) but as the gurus say: don't learn a new layout by looking at the keys, unless you plan to keep looking at them forever!
- Colemak Mac.png (45.54 KiB) Viewed 10817 times
It certainly feels efficient compared to QWERTY, as my fingers stay on home row much more. But I already learned to type, damnit!
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Mal-2
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
- Main keyboard: Cherry G86-61400
- Main mouse: Generic 6-button "gaming mouse"
- Favorite switch: Probably buckling spring, but love them Blues too
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
Straight Dvorak, aside from the slight relocation of the `~ key due to Cherry's strange design choices. (It used to be in the bottom row, and they went so far as to key the rows differently such that they couldn't be swapped, but I wasn't having any of that and hard-modded it.) It's all remapped in hardware though. I'm lying to Windows and telling it this is a QWERTY keyboard, which makes things simple if I need to plug in another for someone else's sake.
Or were you asking about the oddball legends applied to the front faces of the keys? Those are my AltGr assignments. In addition to those the green keys up top are modifiers. ᴵ ᶜᵃⁿ ᵗʸᵖᵉ ᶥⁿ ˢᵘᵖᵉʳˢᶜʳᶥᵖᵗ˒ and use what exists of Unicode subscript (like CH₂H₅OH), have access to the entire range of Grεεκ and τϵcħnιcal symbols, musical symbols ♭♮♯∆°ø, card suits ♠♥♦♣, chess pieces ♔♕♖, round bullets, square bullets, block characters, box drawing characters, arrows, and just åƀòü₮ ēⱴêʀÿ aç¢éñtèð (and archaic: ʒðþ) character that I might need within easy reach.
If you want it, and you're using Windows, here you go. You do not need a special keyboard to do any of this, it just makes it more convenient. The mapping is standard ANSI QWERTY in all ways except for the use of right Alt as AltGr, so you can use as much or as little of the layout as you desire. You'll need the Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator, since I am not distributing the DLLs themselves (you shouldn't trust them anyhow, when it's so easy to compile your own), only the layout file. Here's an Excel file detailing the modifiers and key/character assignments. Use and modify and redistribute as you please. All rights wronged, all wrongs reversed.
Dvorak may be antiquated, but nowhere near as much as QWERTY! Also, I'm a bit antiquated myself at this point, and with 19 years of inertia behind me, I'm not particularly looking to switch yet again.
Last edited by Mal-2 on 07 Mar 2015, 22:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Ah, your switch pre-dated Colemak's creation! Good excuse. I'd warn off anyone new trying Dvorak now, but for those who already know it well, it's obviously better than QWERTY too. Colemak isn't necessarily the be-all and end-all of English layouts (it certainly isn't for other languages) but it's one of the very best right now. Workman's another solid one.
If I can manage to adapt to Colemak without inventing my own unique layout (ASRTD!) I'll be happy. The thing is I don't even formally touchtype on QWERTY, my hands fly all about the place and I only really type with six fingers plus occasional extras. My goal is to learn real touch typing and Colemak in one shot. Difficult to break the old habit though. Damn!
If I can manage to adapt to Colemak without inventing my own unique layout (ASRTD!) I'll be happy. The thing is I don't even formally touchtype on QWERTY, my hands fly all about the place and I only really type with six fingers plus occasional extras. My goal is to learn real touch typing and Colemak in one shot. Difficult to break the old habit though. Damn!
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Mal-2
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
- Main keyboard: Cherry G86-61400
- Main mouse: Generic 6-button "gaming mouse"
- Favorite switch: Probably buckling spring, but love them Blues too
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
Same here. My pinky fingers are strong enough, and I have no problems typing while holding SHIFT or whatever. They're just not long enough to comfortably use outside of the bottom two rows or for striking ENTER, so I do everything with the other six and one thumb, pretty much. I even backspace with the ring finger because the reach is so much easier. I also cross over frequently in the "no man's land" in the middle of the keyboard, in particular frequently taking D (analogous to your H) with the left hand, which is almost certainly bad form.
There are really two primary drawbacks to Dvorak, aside from the frustration of having to deal with other people's QWERTY machines. One is the scattering of the control keys. The other is that one-handed typing (I'm talking about the times when it's not convenient to release the mouse, you perv) is quite a bit more awkward than it ever is on QWERTY, no matter which hand you're talking about. A minor issue is that my typos are largely undecipherable to most people, and a moderate one is that while cheap rubber dome keyboards are generally happy to have their keys relocated, anything with row contouring (like the vast majority of mechanical keyboards other than buckling spring) requires new keys. I also barely glance at the Group Buys. If they're not DSA or uniform Row 3, they're utterly useless to me.
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Compgeke
- Location: Fairfield, California, USA
- Main keyboard: IBM Model M 1391401
- Main mouse: Coolermaster Recon
- Favorite switch: IBM Buckling Spring
- DT Pro Member: 0040
I use plain US ANSI.
My main boards are a Thinkpad T410, Model M 1391401 and a Type Heaven 104 and I'm too lazy to remap keys when the stock US ANSI works well enough for me.
My main boards are a Thinkpad T410, Model M 1391401 and a Type Heaven 104 and I'm too lazy to remap keys when the stock US ANSI works well enough for me.
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deeyay
- Location: Örebro, Sweden
- Main keyboard: Varies
- Favorite switch: All clicky
- DT Pro Member: -
All my boards are ISO except one and that is the big ass enter one Muirium posted picture of up here and it's kind of a pain to adapt to some of the changes. The worst is the small backspace and also that the big ass enter takes away the * and ' key that is located next to the enter key on nordic layout.
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Hermith
- Location: Norway
- Main keyboard: Custom 75%
- Main mouse: MX Master
- Favorite switch: Ergo Clears
- DT Pro Member: -
I use ISO Dvorak (Norwegian). My current 75% layout looks like this:
Some reasoning around this layout is I wanted to keep it as keycap set friendly as possible, thus the default shift sizes, even around the arrow cluster.
Some reasoning around this layout is I wanted to keep it as keycap set friendly as possible, thus the default shift sizes, even around the arrow cluster.
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ramnes
- ПБТ НАВСЕГДА
- Location: France
- Main keyboard: KMAC LE
- Main mouse: Zowie AM
- Favorite switch: GPL 104 lubed 62g nixies
- DT Pro Member: -
QWERTY US international. I don't care much about the physical layout, I'm used to both ISO and ANSI and I really don't mind using one or the other. I'd like to try JIS.
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Mal-2
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
- Main keyboard: Cherry G86-61400
- Main mouse: Generic 6-button "gaming mouse"
- Favorite switch: Probably buckling spring, but love them Blues too
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
Given the relative ease of remapping on a Cherry POS keyboard, I have impulsively decided to give Colemak a run. In fact, I'm using it (slowly and painfully) right now. One clear advantage over Dvorak is that no key jumps two rows, making the relocation of contoured keys somewhat less of a problem. My keyboard LOOKS much nicer. Also, the remapping of CapsLock into Backspace is brilliant and I almost certainly will retain that even if I don't stay with the new layout as a whole.
Also, since the remap is in hardware, it doesn't screw up my AltGr and other (hundreds of) modifier key assignments. I don't have to rewrite my absurdly complex driver.
Here's what it looks like in service:
Somehow this is not quite as painful (even coming from Dvorak) as I remember the QWERTY-to-Dvorak switch to have been. It also feels like this would be well-suited to a non-staggered matrix layout.
Random note: the WASD cluster becomes the WARS cluster.
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idollar
- i$
- Location: Germany (Frankfurt area)
- Main keyboard: IBM F or M
- Favorite switch: BS
- DT Pro Member: -
The International Agencies, UN, CERN, ESA, UE have to decide also the layout to use. Working organisations mixing Spanish, Italians, Germans, British, Portuguese etc ... need to define a standard. In these environment, my experience is that standard US ANSI is used.Muirium wrote: In Europe, we mostly use ISO. Some of us prefer ANSI though, in my case for its looks and ergonomics: the symmetry of the Return key is more pleasing to me, and I don't have to reach out as far for it as with ISO. It's also so much easier to get nice caps for in group buys. Though there's a lot of fine vintage ISO caps out there, just not so much on the new side.
I have not found the same thing in big private corporations. I have seen cases using different layouts in different regions.
I personally used US ANSI.
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Mal-2
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
- Main keyboard: Cherry G86-61400
- Main mouse: Generic 6-button "gaming mouse"
- Favorite switch: Probably buckling spring, but love them Blues too
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
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jack
- Main keyboard: Focus 2001
- Main mouse: Logitech M570
- Favorite switch: ALPS
- DT Pro Member: -
I actually made my own layout after being fed up with how QWERTY Colemak is... also easy for programming as the symbols are easy to reach. Also vi/vim movement keys are not too hard to reach, unlike J on colemak.
Here is a link if you are interested: https://github.com/jackrosenthal/wuly-antimak
Here is a link if you are interested: https://github.com/jackrosenthal/wuly-antimak
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Sigmoid
- Main keyboard: Macbook Pro built-in :P
- Main mouse: Kensington Orbit trackball
- Favorite switch: Buckling spring
- DT Pro Member: -
So far I'm all ANSI, with a relatively shitty, self-taught touch typing that comes from using the QWERTY layout since I was 5. I've been eyeing Dvorak, but never really made the jump.
I'm planning to actually learn proper touch-typing, because what I'm doing is not very friendly to my wrists, and I have hereditary carpal tunnel syndrome... My grandfather couldn't properly grab a glass of water in his last few years, and he never typed a sentence in his life. So I'm still torn whether I should learn QWERTY, or Dvorak. It's further complicated by the fact that I regularly type several languages - C-derivatives, Python, English, Hungarian and German... (And honestly, I hate ISO QWERTZ keyboards with a vengeance.)
BTW, I've recently been wondering about re-thinking the position of action keys. Many old terminals used to have Escape where Tab is, and Field Exit (which is another function of Tab) near or right where Enter is on new keyboards.
(The Infinity, and other specialist layouts have a key to the right of Right Shift... It screams for a better use than another Fn.) Do you guys move action keys around? Where is your Esc, Tab, etc.? How about UNIX-style Control, to the left of A?
I'm planning to actually learn proper touch-typing, because what I'm doing is not very friendly to my wrists, and I have hereditary carpal tunnel syndrome... My grandfather couldn't properly grab a glass of water in his last few years, and he never typed a sentence in his life. So I'm still torn whether I should learn QWERTY, or Dvorak. It's further complicated by the fact that I regularly type several languages - C-derivatives, Python, English, Hungarian and German...
(And honestly, I hate ISO QWERTZ keyboards with a vengeance.)BTW, I've recently been wondering about re-thinking the position of action keys. Many old terminals used to have Escape where Tab is, and Field Exit (which is another function of Tab) near or right where Enter is on new keyboards.
(The Infinity, and other specialist layouts have a key to the right of Right Shift... It screams for a better use than another Fn.) Do you guys move action keys around? Where is your Esc, Tab, etc.? How about UNIX-style Control, to the left of A?-
bhtooefr
- Location: Newark, OH, USA
- Main keyboard: TEX Shinobi
- Main mouse: TrackPoint IV
- Favorite switch: IBM Selectric (not a switch, I know)
- DT Pro Member: 0056
- Contact:
Everything I type on is QWERTY, most of it is ANSI (I've got one ISO board, a 122-key F).
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Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
@Sigmoid: Try Colemak first, see if you like it. Dvorak is a bigger leap (Colemak moves less keys around) and there's no consensus that Dvorak is quicker. Colemak is in the sweet spot now where it's widely supported by various platforms straight out the box (even iOS).
I can vouch for Control left of the A key. IBM should never have moved it with the Model M. But the typewriter trained users out there expected Caps Lock in that prized position, and they won out.
Right Shift Fn makes all the sense in the world when you know where it comes from:
What board are you considering for making the switch? Some are much easier to move caps around on than others (IBM Model F and M are excellent for this, all the caps are the same shape). Though, as the experts say, you shouldn't be looking at the keyboard when you're learning anyway…
I can vouch for Control left of the A key. IBM should never have moved it with the Model M. But the typewriter trained users out there expected Caps Lock in that prized position, and they won out.
Right Shift Fn makes all the sense in the world when you know where it comes from:
What board are you considering for making the switch? Some are much easier to move caps around on than others (IBM Model F and M are excellent for this, all the caps are the same shape). Though, as the experts say, you shouldn't be looking at the keyboard when you're learning anyway…
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Sigmoid
- Main keyboard: Macbook Pro built-in :P
- Main mouse: Kensington Orbit trackball
- Favorite switch: Buckling spring
- DT Pro Member: -
...oh, I get it!
My current workhorse is a Macbook Pro built-in keyboard.
I have an Infinity kit ordered, too. -
andrewjoy
- Location: UK
- Main keyboard: Filco ZERO green alps, Model F 122 Terminal
- Main mouse: Ducky Secret / Roller Mouse Pro 1
- Favorite switch: MX Mount Topre / Model F Buckling
- DT Pro Member: 0167
I use ANSI qwerty but move control or Command back to where it should be.
I may try full UNIX layout one day with the \| of ansi changed to delete and backspace replaced with ˜`and \| allowing Escape to be where ˜`is. Easy to do on model F apart from the lack of printing on the caps
I may try full UNIX layout one day with the \| of ansi changed to delete and backspace replaced with ˜`and \| allowing Escape to be where ˜`is. Easy to do on model F apart from the lack of printing on the caps
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Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Well, a MacBook's keyboard is quite flat, so technically you could swap around your alphas at will. But I don't know if there's a safe way to do it without risking snaps!
If you go with DSA caps on your Infinity, you can do the same trick, without worry. Especially if you can find an alternate homing set like this:
The F and J keys (on QWERTY) are deep dished when you're using spherical caps (or have homing bumps with many cylindricals, your Mac has them marked too) so you can find the home row with your forefingers. Alternatives are required if you do want a fancy alt layout keyset. But then again that's a style choice. You're touch typing, damnit!
If you go with DSA caps on your Infinity, you can do the same trick, without worry. Especially if you can find an alternate homing set like this:
The F and J keys (on QWERTY) are deep dished when you're using spherical caps (or have homing bumps with many cylindricals, your Mac has them marked too) so you can find the home row with your forefingers. Alternatives are required if you do want a fancy alt layout keyset. But then again that's a style choice. You're touch typing, damnit!
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Sigmoid
- Main keyboard: Macbook Pro built-in :P
- Main mouse: Kensington Orbit trackball
- Favorite switch: Buckling spring
- DT Pro Member: -
Yea, key prints aren't a major concern. I'll be using blank DSAs for the Infinity. I'm more pissed about lack of software support for keyboard layouts.
Ukelele seems to be an abandoned project, and OSX has been super weird about keyboard layouts since Mountain Lion on - with the default layouts packed up and moved to an unknown location, and the former keyboard layout folder empty by default. I remember using an Ukelele-designed layout on Mountain Lion, and it worked in most software, but not all (Google Chrome didn't register any keypresses from it for example)...
It's pretty much like "here's your choice of layouts, if you don't like, well go .... yourself". (Not that this isn't characteristic of Apple to begin with.)
And don't even get me started on iOS.
Is there a third-party keyboard extension for iOS8 that is generally accepted as good, and open-source enough to make sure it contains no spyware?
...On another note, has anyone here tried the Neo 2.0 layout?
Ukelele seems to be an abandoned project, and OSX has been super weird about keyboard layouts since Mountain Lion on - with the default layouts packed up and moved to an unknown location, and the former keyboard layout folder empty by default. I remember using an Ukelele-designed layout on Mountain Lion, and it worked in most software, but not all (Google Chrome didn't register any keypresses from it for example)...
It's pretty much like "here's your choice of layouts, if you don't like, well go .... yourself". (Not that this isn't characteristic of Apple to begin with.)
And don't even get me started on iOS.
Is there a third-party keyboard extension for iOS8 that is generally accepted as good, and open-source enough to make sure it contains no spyware?...On another note, has anyone here tried the Neo 2.0 layout?
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stratokaster
- Location: Dublin, Ireland
- Main keyboard: Filco Minila Air
- Main mouse: Contour Unimouse WL / Apple Magic Trackpad 2
- Favorite switch: Alps SKCM Green
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
I use a standard English QWERTY layout.
For Russian language, I use a modified layout with Mac-style location of punctuation marks and Ukrainian letters thrown in to avoid installing a 3rd keyboard layout.
For Russian language, I use a modified layout with Mac-style location of punctuation marks and Ukrainian letters thrown in to avoid installing a 3rd keyboard layout.