Help me design my perfect layout

[acolombo]

Hi everyone, I'm Andrea from Italy; I'm new here and I'm new to the mechanical keyboard world, but not new to keyboards. In fact I've had a little fun with keyboard controllers creating some simracing peripherals, so I basically know how a keyboard works, matrix and stuff... I was looking for a new keyboard to save some desk space, and since I hate scissor flat keyboards I searched a bit, so on a yt channel (RhynoFeed, dunno if he is known or not around here) I came across a review of the Poker 2, and loved its aesthetics. Then I lurked around here for some days looking at your awesome projects, and this is my first post.

The fact is I don't want to spend more than 100€ for a brand new Poker 2 or another keyboard without trying some switches and knowing more about mechs. So for first I'm on the lookout for some vintage mech keyboard in my area, even if it's not compact I just want to enjoy the feeling ( ) of a mech, and maybe modding it a bit (a cool project would be to find an electric typewriter and convert it to usb).

In the meantime, inspired by your works and custom keyboards, I'm just thinking of how my perfect keyboard would be. I love 60%s but I really need the arrow keys as I use them a lot in graphic design. At the same time I don't like 65%s. I've seen a photo of a keyboard with the arrows at the sides of the spacebar (I can't find it anymore, if you know about keyboards like that please link me to them) and made a lot of layouts using that concept...
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/# ... ec97bf3d37

layout1.png (17.06 KiB) Viewed 4038 times

This is the most complete layout I've made, it's an US layout, but in my language I really need accents so I side-printed some symbols on certain keys. I'd like to access them using RAlt or atleast Fn. Would it be possible via firmware on a Teensy? Or should I do that via software with AutoHotKey?
Another problem would be the 4,75u spacebar, does it exist or should it be 3d printed ad-hoc? Are there any standard measures for spacebars?
Do you have any other advice about this layout?

Another layout I like is this one:

aadaba51579528fe20580b24946584f0.jpg (618.23 KiB) Viewed 4038 times

I don't know if it should be called a 65% or what, but is this a custom keybard or it's available in the market? I prefer the 60% form factor but I can't stand the arrow keys on a Fn layer, so if I decide to buy a keyboard and not making it myself this could be the one.

I hope the post isn't too long Thank you guys.
Ciao

[matt3o]

Hey Andrea, welcome!

Let's start from the end. The keyboard with the arrow cluster you posted is a Leopold FC660C, It's a topre capacitive keyboard. You can also find the FC660M, that is built around MX switches instead.

I like your design, I don't know if it would be comfortable to use the arrows that way though. Unfortunately I don't think you can find 4.75u spacebars (even though from the pic it looks like a 5u), 3D printing is quite expensive even for small items and I would suggest to just rezise it to a more standard unit. In the DSA family you can find 6u spacebars, in SA even 3 and 4 units, in DCS 4.5, 5 and 6 units. All profiles have of course 6.25u and 7u.

This is what I recently built myself (and in the upper corner you can spot the 660C)



I love this layout but I understand you prefer a more compact layout.

The layers can be programmed directly in the teensy, so no need to mess around with the software. Regarding the spacebar specs just let us know which one you choose and I'll let you have the stem position.

Cheers and good luck with your project!

[Madhias]

Here's a nice overview of the different keycap profiles matt3o mentioned. Problem is when creating custom designs to get keycaps which will fit, and it's also always better when they're matching color, material and style.

Maybe you could change matt3o's design: position the arrow keys a bit to the left - to get rid of the 4 keys on the right border. Than it would be more 60%. But i think the 4 keys there could be handy: for example PAGE UP and DOWN?

Spoiler:

Wait. Andrea - Italy - graphic design?

[scottc]

Hi Andrea and welcome. I had this problem for some time, too - I wanted a small, custom keyboard but needed arrows. At one point, I wanted to fit the arrows in the 60% area, but it just proved to be a bit awkward to do so. I settled for a keyboard similar in layout to what matt3o just posted, but one of my other ideas was this:


http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/# ... cb13c80aec

The only issue is that the stagger isn't normal - the ZXCV row is moved to the left very slightly.

[Muirium]

I'd get a Leopold FC660M to see if you like it. You're investigating several significant changes, all at once, and that will give you a valuable test. Compact layouts and mechanical switches are both big leaps.

Here's the thing about custom keyboards: they cost more than commercial models. I love my custom 60%, because I tailored it precisely to my needs so it's so much better than a Poker. But it is more costly, in components as well as quite a bit of time.

Caps are the crucial limiting factor for layouts. Unless you like typing on blanks (which is quite cool actually) you are limited to designing around their constraints. Space bars only come in a few sizes (really, only 6.25 units is mainstream) and many keys are difficult to find in any variation from their standard width and row. I would usually point you to one of the great Group Buys that we have for high end caps with custom size support, but Round 5 and PBT Granite are closed, and GMK Dolch is very expensive. I doubt you would like to pay more than a Poker for your caps!

So here's my actual advice. Find a switch tester, so you can try the MX line. Full keyboards are better, if you prefer! Find whether you like linear or clicky or tactile, and then track down a FC660M. You will know whether you're exploring the right direction when you have a good solid board like that. Then, if you want to go deeper, by all means get tangled up with the custom builders here! It's just wiser to know, first. And cheaper too.

[acolombo]

Thank you all guys!

I've now found which is the keyboard I got the inspiration from. It's the phoneboard also matt3o got the insipiration for his keycaps I think. If you know any other keyboard with this feature point me it out as I'd like to see more of these layouts.

I know it's an unusual layout but for my needs it could be good, so I will try something similar on my current keyboard using SharpKeys for some time, let's see how it goes.

Hey Andrea, welcome!
...

I've seen most of your works so I already knew that keyboard I prefer to have enter and backspace at the side of the keyboard, that's why I don't like much that last row of keys.

The spacebar is 5u, you are right, I was designing the layout at 5.35am so I probably got confused. I'm now looking at all the keycaps families and getting to know them.

Here's a nice overview of the different keycap profiles matt3o mentioned.
...
Wait. Andrea - Italy - graphic design?

I'm not that guy, but damn he got some talent.
Thanks for the keycaps link! btw I really love your project of the chopped G80 11800 with Skidata keycaps, that's one of my favorite keyboards so far.

Hi Andrea and welcome.
...
The only issue is that the stagger isn't normal - the ZXCV row is moved to the left very slightly.

Also in my layout a played a bit with the stagger of the last row, I was questioning myself if that could be done or not but at last I tought it's just a matter of habits. I preferred to have a symmetrical layout than having the right staggering. Have you guys ever tried a slightly different stagger? How does it feel like?

[Hypersphere]

If possible, try out Topre as well as Cherry switches, so that you will know whether to go for the Leopold FC660C (Topre) or FC660M (Cherry). The layouts are the same, but the sound and feel are very different.

[acolombo]

If possible, try out Topre as well as Cherry switches, so that you will know whether to go for the Leopold FC660C (Topre) or FC660M (Cherry). The layouts are the same, but the sound and feel are very different.

I'd love to try every kind of switch possible before buying or making a new keyboard, so I hope to have some opportunites to try them. If someone has some testers hanging around I'd be happy to buy them.

[scottc]

Hi Andrea and welcome.
...
The only issue is that the stagger isn't normal - the ZXCV row is moved to the left very slightly.

Also in my layout a played a bit with the stagger of the last row, I was questioning myself if that could be done or not but at last I tought it's just a matter of habits. I preferred to have a symmetrical layout than having the right staggering. Have you guys ever tried a slightly different stagger? How does it feel like?

I haven't myself. There's a commercial keyboard with a similar layout - the Filco MiniLa (review etc here) - and matt3o told me that he'd tried it while we were discussing the non-standard stagger in the thread that I linked previously:

I tried the weird staggering on the minila. It's not a big issue, but sometimes I found myself typing weird things. I guess you need some time to get 100% used to it. Personally it's something that I prefer to avoid on my main driver because when you get used to weird staggering you feel uncomfortable on all other keyboards. Anyway, like I said, it's something you can live with.

[Muirium]

Here's my usual link when people ask for a tester:

http://www.cmstore.eu/cm-storm/keyboard ... ch-tester/

But once again CM Europe seems to be out of stock! We really ought to have a touring one of these for new members anyway.

Hyper's right about the Topre version of the little Leopold. But beware! We don't know how to build customs with Topre switches yet (they aren't discrete components like MX) although we would really like to, because they are damn nice to type on.

[acolombo]

Here's my usual link when people ask for a tester:

http://www.cmstore.eu/cm-storm/keyboard ... ch-tester/

But once again CM Europe seems to be out of stock! We really ought to have a touring one of these for new members anyway.

Hyper's right about the Topre version of the little Leopold. But beware! We don't know how to build customs with Topre switches yet (they aren't discrete components like MX) although we would really like to, because they are damn nice to type on.

Thanks for the link but I've already seen that, it seems like it's often unavailable, so if someone does have it I could buy an used one. Also I found this kit http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shi ... 06042.html I could buy this and try to find 1 or 2 very cheap keycaps.

[Madhias]

You definitely have to try out also MX Whites, Greens and Clears! Those are the three i like most. I could send you 1-2 Greens, Whites, Clears, Blues and Browns and you can mix up springs and stems. I think i do not have Reds and Blacks. I have to look.

[jacobolus]

Or perhaps:


(These are both the same dimensions as 60%; if you relax that constraint there are a lot of other options.)

[matt3o]

the first one is very close to my first custom. you need some time to get used to the unstaggered num row, but it works pretty well.

[Madhias]

I'm wondering how the small SHIFT on the right side works out. I'm sure I would get used to it by time, but maybe only when it's the only board you use.

[matt3o]

it works for me. I use to press the right shift near the left edge, so no problem for me.