HHKB Pro 2

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Man If I coul'd buy an aftermarket PBT spacebar for the HHKB i would go for it, maybe we should ask Imsto on GH if he somehow can order PBT spacebars for Topre and HHKB Keyboards? This stuff would definately sell like crazy!!!


Got my mouse today! And they look killer together hehe

[Muirium]

Topre fit caps seem to be hard to get hold of. I don't know if it's a patent obstacle or just their rareness compared to Cherry MX fit, but they're much harder to replace. See also Matt's anger about the Windows logo bubble keys on his otherwise adored new Realforce.

Ah, I see you're already thinking outside the box!

[cookie]

The only problem with the leopold spacebar are 2 things.
1: Key profile
2: Black color

And IF leopold had a white FC660, it's not guaranteed, that they have the same color.

The 10th anniversary RF looks so gorgeous, a HHKB in this color scheme with blank caps.... Killer!

[matt3o]

The only problem with the leopold spacebar are 2 things.
1: Key profile
2: Black color

And IF leopold had a white FC660, it's not guaranteed, that they have the same color.

The 10th anniversary RF looks so gorgeous, a HHKB in this color scheme with blank caps.... Killer!

unfortunately the RF misses some keys to cover a HHKB otherwise it would look really nice

[cookie]

HHKB came out 1996, so 2006 must be the anniversary year... Hmm nothing, maybe we have to wait till 2016!

[Muirium]

HHKB came out in 1996, yes. But HHKB Pro came out in 2003, HHKB Pro 2 in 2006, and HHKB Pro 2 Type-S in 2011. Just rolling these out off the top of my head…

So, yes, we're kinda sorta due for an all new HHKB. (Bluetooth, Fujitsu, just do it!) But you can never tell with those guys. And don't forget about the JP and Lite models they also refresh every once in a while. I wouldn't be surprised if more HHKB JPs and Lites exist (in Japan alone) than HHKB Pro 2s do out in the world.

As for the 2006 anniversary, apparently that was the excuse for these. 2016 should be good!

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Haha jeah HHKB HG, I was thinking about something under 300 bugs

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Yesterday I compared the HHKB with 3 of my old rubber domes and the scissor switch on my notebook.

I compared the KB with an old Logitech g15, logitech internet navigator and a logitech g110.
They have a different sound and a different feel thats for sure. I don't know it is because the HHKB is brand new and the rubberdomes are older but they feel mushy and unprecise. It just feels wrong to type on them. And the sound is not nearly as pleasing as on the HHKB... Caps, build quality and feeling is a whole different world!

The scissor switch on the notebook is not rally compareble to the HHKB, of all the dome Keyboards this one feels best but it is really flat, verry short travel and the surface is verry glossy what alsways gives me the feeling someone typed on my notebook after eating some fatty stuff without washing his hands! Man I totally hate glossy finish and shiny caps!

I am still not sure if the HHKB really worth that much money, but you get something for your cash! Verry nice build qualiy (verry light and sturdy), a switch wich is really pleasing to type on (if you like topre), and kickass keycaps! And not to forget, a build in USB hub. This is something I started to love with my logitech g110!

I think for everyone who is hesitating because of the small form factor and the layout, you should go for a 60% keyboard with MX Reds. I know, you can't compare those two switches but reds are still one of my favorites and when it comes down to softness! They are really really nice! Especially if they are used for quite a time. I think that they get better over the time!

I can imagine that lubed ergo clears are a really really nice switch too! I will definately keep one cherry keyboard and fit them with ergo clears some day!

I lost my love for mx blues... I can't tell when this happened but I don't enjoy it anymore.
They feel scratch, they are loud, they feel wrong and somehow cheap... I will sell them as soon as I have the time to desolder them.

Cherry reds are still one of my favorite switches, They are linear so you can't really compare them with a HHKB but they definately feel soft and nice. If you aim for some topre softness they will work great with o rings! I had them used dental rubber bands but they were to big and had to much impact on travel. The soft landing felt verry nice, so with the right o ring or other dampering material this switch is by far the best you can get!

Cherry blacks are a verry strange storry, I only like the vintage blacks. They feel like a dream. A little harder to press than reds but this stronger feedback gives them more meat! I had them on an old g80 Cardreader, PBC mounted with diodes... This was and is still one of my favorite keyboards you can get for under 20€! 2 verry annoyng problems were still there: too big case and shiny caps... Thats the reason I gifted it to a colleague.

I shortly typed on a board with cherry browns, was okay back then, but with my new opinion about blues in mind i will probably not like them anymore...

Alps... Those switches are a nightmare. I typed a while on a Dell AT 102 with black alps and I dislike them a lot.
The build construction is verry nice actually, verry sturdy case, nice thick backplate but the switch feels so rattly and cheap. I tryed to improve the feeling by lubing them and remove the matel plate wich gives the switch it's tactile feel. That improved it a lot but still no chance against a mx red, so it ended up gathering dust somewhere in my cellar.

I also tryed a nice vintage Highscreen Keyboard with doubleshot caps and White alps.. They were fun to type on because of the insane noise they make But in the end the switch got the same downsides as the black.. Rattly, cheap feeling and so loud that it start to annoys me.

I still don't know if the HHKB is really worth the money... 2 things are bugging me... Will the noise and typing feel change over the years because of the rubber dome? And how fast will the spacebar start to shine and should this really happen on a 250€ keyboard?

Time will show!

[Muirium]

I like linear switches too, Cookie. How about this: would your ideal switch be a Topre that was linear – without the bump – or a Topre with a click?

Clicks make keys "feel" real to me: your fingers touch things, but it's your mind that feels them. I'm still to test 002's Realforce, and I suspect I'll miss my clicks. Certainly compared to buckling spring! But I must compare it to a linear keyboard too. Even though linears have neither tactile bump nor click, I actually prefer them to Cherry's silent tactile switches.

The scratchiness you and Matteo talk about in blues sounds like it's to do with their tactility. I don't like MX browns one bit, and clears don't convince me either. Their tactile bump mechanism seems loose to me. Topre seems to keep it tight. Tactility done right.

Perhaps I'll prefer a full board of Tope to buckling spring. I don't know. The sound alone will be a huge difference! I like buckling spring's tactility: which isn't strong but sure is sharp. But I'd prefer it earlier in the keystroke.

You're being harsh on Alps, though. There's just so many of them! I prefer the high pitched mechanical precision in MX blue's click to the sound I've heard any Alps make, but some Alps feel quite nice to me. I'm showing off because I have Mr. Interface's Switch Sampler to pull rare ones from: beware the Omron! An Alps-mount switch that sounds like a staplegun!

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I must say that I used to like audible feedback on switches and that is the reason mx blues felt so damn right to me, I still love the sound but they simply don't feel smooth enough to me. And I can understand coleagues wo got a little bit annoyed by the switch... Tactile feel of topre switches are verry nice. They feel crisp but smooth at the same time when you actuate them. A linear Topre would be an mx red with dampering to me. And this is definately something I will go for in the near future. Alps are not my cup of tea, I like verry light switches and if I had the oportunity to go for an all 30g HHKB I'd gone for it! I never hat the pleasure to try the Omron but I think that I will never like them as much as Cherry MX or Topre simply because of how they are build.

I think it is really hard to go back after you once felt and liked the Topre "Butterness" I am slightly getting more and more used to the switches and I can't see me going back in the near future. But it's also because of the caps... Yesterday I typed on my beloved QFR with reds but the caps were so shiny, felt cheap and really bad.

One thing I know for sure is that I will never use something else then PBT Caps!

I think about performing this on my mx red: http://deskthority.net/photos-videos-f8 ... t6118.html

[Muirium]

Buttery smooth, but tactile too! There's a bit of a Topre feel discussion going on over here today.

Re: PBT. I agree. ABS has the advantage of (readily available) doubleshot, but dye-sub is a fine process too. I prefer it because we can pick our own font when doing group buys. And then there's always blanks!

[cookie]

For me is labeling not neccessary anymore, so I'd stick with blanks on my cherry boards. But the other Problem I had in the past was that I can't geht good quality PBT caps for ISO boards. I got in touch with Imsto about this but unfortunately he wasn't able to get some ISO pbt, Othewise I would have sticked with my cherry red board

I never understood people who spend so much money on good PBT caps but now I understand. Couldn't believe how much impact caps has on the typing expirience!

One switch I'd like to try is ofc the variable weightet RF and ergo clears. Maybe then my journey is over... maybe?

[Muirium]

Hall effect… Beam Spring… Burroughs Opto…

It never ends, you know. Once you've done them all, you turn into Webwit.

[webwit]

Quack.

[cookie]

Caps and formfactor are more important for me than trying all kinds of switches.

[Muirium]

Correct answers: tall profile sphericals like SA or HiPro; and 60-75% or TKL.

Easy!

[cookie]

I never tryed a HiPro cap. But when it comes to keyboard size... I will never go back to a fullsize keyboard.
Maximum woul'd be a Tenkeyless... But I am still curious to try out the RF from the Euro tour!

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I got in touch with Signature Plastic a few days ago and asked them if they can produce PBT spacebars for topre mounts?
Today I got an answer from SP and unfortunately they are not able to produce any kind of PBT spacebar....

How does it come that leopold can do it but topre can't and SP neither?

[Muirium]

Plastics isn't rocket science, but it's not child's play either.

Signature Plastics is an interesting example. They specialise in small batch runs, so I understand, which is why they are such a natural fit for our group buys. Mass manufacturing likes to churn out the same product over and over again, thanks to the economy of scale. Tweaking little things, like colours and legends, is a way to wreck that as setup has to be altered for every change and inevitably more errors are made. Check out Round 4's rejects in 7bit's big leftover grab bags that sold recently. Some pretty but malformed legends. Usually, a manufacturer just has to write those off.

And then there's tooling. Different jobs needs different molds. Design, prototyping, testing… none of that is cheap and all of it must be done before production. No surprise SP asks for tooling costs when requests are made for "new" caps. If they don't have the tooling already, it must be made like new.

So, PBT space bars. The ultimate answer: not big enough demand. Not from SP, at least. But why can Vortex or other Chinese / Korean / Japanese manufacturers? Because when those guys do, they do so in many thousands, and so win by economy of scale. It's all about costs, nothing deeper.

Homebrew caps are calling us!

[matt3o]

Last time I asked they told me that molding big keys in PBT is very difficult due to the property of the material (it shrinks/bends when it cures). This is the main reason why SP doesn't do that (and probably not enough demand of course).

[Muirium]

The huge PBT spacebar on my Model F has wrinkles which back that up.

Moulding plastics is great for huge runs of the same thing, but not so well suited to the tricky stuff we like. Of course, there are other ways…

[cookie]

SP is specialized on small batches, that is the reason they are so expensive. Technically it is possible, as we can see on the leopold fc 660. So I don't understand why they even not concider providing this in the future? Same with wasd caps, they will not provide PBT caps in generall... I don't know why, maybe because of "planned obsolescence" so people are forced to buy the next set after one got shiny and ugly?

Homebrew PBT? Now that is a task...

[Muirium]

The key is to think outside of the box. Or the mould, in this case. There are other ways to trim something down to shape. Computer controlled ones…

[cookie]

Maybe you are right, Molding is a good thing when it comes to mass production but handmade spacebars in small quantites needs an other approach!

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Today I received my nice rubber feet to prevent the HHKB from slipping all over the desktop,
I am verry happy with the result, the board stays where it is, all the time!

I am still wondering why they didn't applyed such rubber feet straight away?

[Muirium]

Looks like you've got enough there for three to five more HHKBs. Forward thinking!

[cookie]

As some of you already know, I discovered spring vibraion and noise on some of the keys on my hhkb, this bugs me actually more than I thought it would... I got used to topres and the delightfull "THOCK" and I love the small form factor but It is hard to spend 250 Bugs and forgive flaws...I switched yesterday to my mx reds and they are actually really smooth, if you somehow could eliminate the bottom out and up sound, this would be a killer switch!

BUUUT I also like the tactile feeling of the HHKB and I will not give this up... I slowly get Used to the ANSI Layout but I have to admit that I actually like my iso layout more and it is even better when you swap alt GR with capslock, this is really a joy to programm on.

I really need to figure something out!

[Jmneuv]

First you need to invest in a proper screwdriver, probably a PH1 .. cost is around 8€. From there it will be a joy to take electronic home appliances apart, since that PH1 will fit most of those screws.

[cookie]

I have verry good tools at home, so this will not be a problem. And I found a relly nice Video on YT where the guy explaines pretty much my problem. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW8QIE6OK0Q

I read in the comment section that lubing the springs will fix this issue. I will give it a try, but first I need to find lube which will not affect the Rubber Dome!

[Jmneuv]

was about to say.. guess you'll find yourself in krytox (oil) territory soon; i think one of its special properties is to be very non reactive;