Keyboards with the smoothest linear switches

[Wendell]

Though I've had a presence at GH for some time, DT seems a bit more oriented to this question about older models, so I'm making this first post. Howdy.

What older keyboard models had smooth and solid linear switches? My primary interest is in the typing experience, so I'm flexible but not completely indifferent to the layout. Something close to a modern layout would be appreciated. It could be either USB or something for which I could easily get a USB converter.

I'm asking here because I've tried common models on the market today and haven't liked them. My reference switches for the past two decades have been IBM BS, Fujitsu Peerless, and old Alps whites. I tried some new Cherry Blues, Reds, and Browns but to me they felt cheap and scratchy. I want something much more solid and smooth.

Probably, I would also want the keep the activation weight <60g. I remember in the 1980s using and hating the 75g linears in the original Apple Macintosh M0110 keyboards.

This is not just for curiosity's sake. It might become a daily user.

[Icarium]

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Honeywell_Hall_Effect

I have some and they are great. Not ideal when pressed off-center and I have no idea what the actuation force is.

[ne0phyte]

Vintage Cherry MX Black switches are really smooth. They don't feel as scratchy like current MX Red/Black switches.

I don't know if anyone tried that before, but you could probably take MX Red springs and put them into vintage black switches to get a smooth switch with a low actuation force.

[Muirium]

Honeywell Hall Effect is indeed the smoothest switch of all. And the caps are quite fantastic! Somewhere between MX red and black, I'd say from the ones I've tried, but they came in a range of weights, marked by a code on the switch. But it's way beyond the scope of easy adaptation. Well, unless you found a Symbolics keyboard, which I hear has been successfully converted to PS/2. But they are very highly saught after by collectors and we're talking custom hardware to convert them, so not exactly what you asked for. Yet so smooth!

Sure it's the smoothness of travel that's the question? As much as I love a silky smooth switch, I find it only really matters if I don't bottom out. That's the dominant feeling when I do.

[Icarium]

You could buy this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BIG-vintage-ger ... 3382585eae

Then I'll no longer be tempted.

[webwit]

RAFI keyboard.

[Icarium]

What is that!? That's not in the wiki! How dare you!

[Muirium]

It's getting there…

http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/raf ... t6216.html

If this is indeed that.

[Muirium]

Vintage Cherry MX Black switches are really smooth. They don't feel as scratchy like current MX Red/Black switches.

I don't know if anyone tried that before, but you could probably take MX Red springs and put them into vintage black switches to get a smooth switch with a low actuation force.

Ascaii has some boards full of vintage MX blacks for sale:

5. Four PCBs from NIXDORF terminals. Each pcb holds 118 vintage blacks with transparent housing, as well as one linear white.

http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ ... t6239.html

They are lighter than modern blacks, as well as smoother. But work is required to get them into the keyboard you desire.

[AKIMbO]

Check out the Zenith ZKB2-AT. It will come with either linear green alps or linear yellow alps....both of which are very smooth. The throw is noticeably shorter than cherry mx switches, which I feel adds to the feeling of smoothness.

[Icarium]

What is a "throw" in this context and how does it affect switch feeling?

[dorkvader]

What is a "throw" in this context and how does it affect switch feeling?

Throw usually refers to the distance the switch travells. SOme switches, like alps have less than the 4.0mm throw of most switches. hall effect (honeywell) are rated for 4.0 +-0.1mm I think, though I haven't measured it.

You could say throw doesn't affect switch feeling directly, or it has a great effect, as bottom out points and actuation points are important.

I say another vote for hall effect switches. The newer ones (1981+) might not be as smooth as the vintage ones, but they don't suffer from off-axis hits affecting the feeling so much. I have an older KB that has been hit off axis so much that the stems show noticeable wear. That said, lubing them really helps.

So if you could find a older style hall effect kb that was brand new, then it'd probably be the smoothest you'd get. I would also recommend oiling the sliders every year or so to keep them working well (this is very easy to do)

[Muirium]

What kind of oil do you suggest, Dorkvader?

[Biernot]

I'll never get it why everybody thinks vintage blacks are smoother. I have several G80 HADs from the 90s, and to me they all feel just stiffer than the newer ones.

[webwit]

There are two camps, one says the vintage blacks are smoother because the materials changed (the material change was confirmed). The other says that the older the switches, the evidence gets more anecdotal, because you don't know what happened in the lifetime of particular keyboard. I.e. maybe they feel smoother when you hit those switches 10 million times. Maybe stiffer. Maybe the keyboard was abused, maybe not.

[Peter]

'Vintage blacks' do feel smoother, I have (well, had) a NIB G80-3000 with the old blacks
and compared with a NIB g80-3000 with the 'new' ones ..
There IS a difference, not huge, but it's there .
One thing I didn't try was to swap the caps and feel how much difference that makes, if any .
I suspect the cap-material (and also the thickness) does make a difference in 'key-feel' ..

There's no action left in this keyboard !!

[Wendell]

I got started on this because when older programmers talk about the most comfortable keyboards they ever used, the models they mention seem always to have had linear switches.

My early typing for several years was on 1970s smooth, high-profile, spherical keycaps with a light activation pressure and long travel. Of them all, the Selectric was the best. I suppose the 60g activation weight is not light by today's standards, but I learned on mechanical typewriters and the Selectric seemed like a feather touch to me. I hated the 1980s shift to low, textured, cylindrical keycaps and have spent the past quater century disliking every keyboard I use.

Something I miss about the Selectric and mechanicals is the soft landing. Will linears always have a hard bottoming out?

Trying to narrow the range of options... It seems than IBM keyboards, from beam-spring to buckling spring to dome, have always been tactile, so they're out. The DEC VT-100 keyboard had stackpole switches, but the path to getting a working converter is too involved for me. So, are my only options either Hall effect switches, vintage Cherry MX Blacks, or Alps Green/Yellow?

On the options mentioned so far...

Symbolics: I'm handy enough with a soldering iron to put a converter together if it comes as a kit. I've seen pictures of all the Symbolics models and some are quite different. Anyone know how they compare by feel?

RAFI: Looks worth a try, but $600?! Also, not sure about the rather flat caps and short travel. I saw Sixty's description of the feel on GH. How do they sound on bottoming and release?

Zenith ZKB2-AT: It's hard finding info on the Alps Green and Yellow; how do they compare to the Alps Black and vintage Cherry Black in terms of weight, feel, actuation point, etc? BTW, I gather that modern Alps are nothing like the quality of vintage, true?

With anything but a standard modern layout, I'm goind to be wishing I could remap some of the keys. Maybe it would be better in the end to get an older model and use a programmable converter rather than a XT/AT/PS2 model.

[Muirium]

Soarer's converter is the good standard of programmability after the fact. And it is XT/AT/PS2, and terminal. Going further back, you're into the realm of custom controllers (like Xwhatsit's current work on beam springs) and exotic hardware converters (like kbdbabel's Symbolics).

I quite agree about tall spherical caps, though. Timeless.

[webwit]

Old programmers just prefer what they used when they were young. As a rule of thumb, everything other some IBM boards before the early eighties can be described as Random Ass Linear.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

It's getting there…

http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/raf ... t6216.html

If this is indeed that.

Based on the catalogue I've got, I'd suggest that they are RAFI RS 76C Hall-effect switches:

RAFI RS 76C catalogue entry.jpg (62.98 KiB) Viewed 8711 times

The "magnetic pulse" switches are a mystery: the keycap mount is RAFI, but RAFI deny all knowledge of the switches or keycaps.

[webwit]

Sixty's review (former owner):
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=13684.0

[Wendell]

Soarer's converter is the gold standard of programmability after the fact. And it is XT/AT/PS2, and terminal. Going further back, you're into the realm of custom controllers (like Xwhatsit's current work on beam springs) and exotic hardware converters (like kbdbabel's Symbolics).

I've been surprised at how easy it is now to set up USB conversion for some old boards.

Xwhatsit's beamspring to USB converter:
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/beam ... t6044.html

The Hagstrom XT to USB converter is available off the shelf:
http://www.hagstromelectronics.com/prod ... xtusb.html

I found the kbdbabel and soarer projects rather difficult to get started with. There is a much friendlier description of a Teensy based Symbolics converter here:
http://netzhansa.blogspot.com/2009/04/h ... board.html

VT-100 to USB has been worked out. There is just no packaged kit yet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW_uu-B1kbg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i03rmPtuJZ4
http://www.loomcom.com/blog/

[Wendell]

It's hard finding info on the Alps Green and Yellow; how do they compare to the Alps Black and vintage Cherry Black in terms of weight, feel, actuation point, etc?

From what I can dig up, there were two Alps Yellows, a linear and a clicky. The linear Alps Yellow is the same as the Alps Green. (So what was the point?) The actuation force was around 60g, compared to 75g for the Alps Black. The vintage Alps Green might be a little lighter than the vintage Cherry Black. (Did the Alps Green have the same spring as the White?)

Travel of the Alps is shorter than the Cherry, and the actuation point is higher.

It seems that vintage Cherry Black or Alps Green is a good budget option. Aside from the Zenith already mentioned, what models and date ranges are good to look for?

By the way, I was surprised to discover that Stackpole is a company. I always thought it described the style of switch used in the VT-100. It was actually a common switch that got used by a lot of other companies ranging from HP to Heathkit.

[hasu]

From my rough mesurement with coin stacking(rip-o-meter), Alps green is 50g, yellow(linear) 60g and Cherry red 40g. Green is my favorite, red is too light for me.
Alps in good shape is very rare here in Japan these days, I found every old Alps switches need to be cleaned and lub'ed unless it is NIB.

Alps green and yellow: http://i.imgur.com/AcxSK4D.jpg

[Wendell]

... Alps green is 50g, yellow(linear) 60g and Cherry red 40g...

Thanks, that is really helpful. What I read online implied that greens and yellows had the same spring. From the picture, they clearly don't.