GMK white on dark grey US/GB full set {Cancelled}

[IvanIvanovich]

Removing a large number of keys does make it much cheaper surely, and I did it across the board with all 'redundant' keys (except that one *+ since ÉÈ both have opposite brackets in Italian and it would look terrible with one missing). The only ones that have a 3rd legend left are those that is the only way it comes in otherwise.

We are limited to legends that already existed in doubleshots. GMK won't start cutting legends to order yet, maybe next year they will be ready for that.

Either it will be one big kit, or I will need to be extra genius to figure out how to bundle up languages in smaller packs without a single redundant key... so there are not loads of keys in the base set, and not loads of keys in the language packs. But if I was that smart I probably would have already figured it out.

So, maybe some help...
I guess the most that share with each other grouped, minus anything that is shared between any of them = base?
But how to not have keys in the base set, that would be useless without something from a language pack? Impossible?!?
Studying layouts for a long time... my brain is hurting.

[7bit]

I know how you feel. And with GMK it is much worse!
The most keys in the Round 4 spherical leftovers are those with the lowest quantities ordered. So, with SP you end up with a lot of useless keys in form of grab bags and with GMK people get these in their large kits. Just the price level and MOQ is higher.

So, GMK does not do new legends, only existing ones. This means I can't get ~: etc. anyway.


About the color: Can't we make a poll?
- white on grey
- white on grey/black

I"m quite sure, most people would like to have them all in grey.

[pasph]

I have requested only one big pack till the beginning (end of 2012), do you remember?

[IvanIvanovich]

For now it's only existing doubleshots, or whatever you want in pad printing. I think, they just need more practicing with cutting legends before they feel it's up to quality to offer that service. You saw the revision 1 of the Windows and menu keys, they were kind of rough... the new 8 style ones are looking pretty good though.
We had a poll for colors, it was up for months and this was winner. Don't be asleep for the next IC (if there even is one).

Yes, I think one big set simplified is the way to go now. I will try to sell it, but I am not sure still if all the I only want US ANSI people will accept it. Maybe I will drop US ANSI and replace it with South Slavic (former Yugoslavia) if they won't cooperate

[rindorbrot]

I also think that sacrificing too many of the third legends on the keys is not the best idea.
As I said earlier these are the legends that are the most likely you'd have to look up again.

This would probably put me off the alpha set and I'd only go with the mod and nav pack.

My vote would go more into the direction of dropping some languages and do the remaining ones with 100% correct legends.
But of course it wouldn't be easy to say which languages could be dropped...

[Broadmonkey]

I have a really hard time figuring out if people are serious or not in this group buy, especially on GH (and for some reason I get this song on my head)

I would be all in for one big alpha pack w/ lang, as this increases the possibility of reaching moq, but from what I can gather too many... non Europeans will object to this, unless we seriously cut down on the number of keys.

So if we have to have two lang kit, why not get rid of the base kit and just add the alpha keys to each language kit. People are going to buy a language pack anyway and this will eliminate all extra keys that is covered by the lang kit (I guess this only means the num row and the blank keys)

People also see this as a full set gb, when it is in fact an Alpha + modifier gb (they could just as well be independent buys) so if this is going to be a full set gb, we need to do the hard thing and get rid of all extra keys that doesn't belong on a regular Filco and include a tsangan kit plus a few cheap blanks.
Excessive extra keys in the modifier kit belongs in a modifier gb like the purple gb.
Regarding colors, current colors has been voted as separate sets, so if we are going to make it a full set, voting should be made for full set (although I like the dark grey and black)

Just some thoughts based on peoples reactions.

[tlt]

There has not been any voting of modifyer colors as far as I know. But the idea was to compliment vintage BoW set I think. I think it would be better to make gray modifyers that matches the alpha keys well (inverse Dolch maybe?). They could still be used together with old sets.

[Broadmonkey]

No, there hasn't been voting on mods. Black was chosen because it is wanted as a separate mod pack (like the purple gb) and it went well with the grey alphas. That is how I understood it. There is a lot of MY7000 sets around which needs a black modifier set.

[IvanIvanovich]

Yes... well... it is a real hard thing trying to make reason. I got pricing for the big unified alpha pack which would be €71 / $96. It's a cheaper price overall and as you say it ensures the MOQ is reached for all languages.
The other thing we could do, that may appease most people is make the base set US/GB. Then we can have a DE/DK/NO/SF pack since they have most in common including many of 3rd legend keys on the numbers, Then a ES/BR/JA/MX/PO set as they have more in common with each other. Perhaps drop IT as there was not much support and has the most keys that don't share with another... though Danish has little support it's only a couple keys different than NO. Also, perhaps make pack GENERIC, which takes out all the blanks and the generic numbers and put them into a set? I think many people may still find those useful, but not to force to have them as part of base which will take it's key count down.
That way each of the language pack have less keys that won't be useful to the buyer and a cheaper price. The only thing is I am not sure about reaching the MOQ for each.
What do you think about this plan?

[pasph]

make the base set US/GB?
no comment...

[matt3o]

this is actually very nice.

but I once again push for 1-kit-to-rule-them-all

[BimboBB]

Agree with matt3o.....put also the nav pack into the alpha set with languages....so its one big pack plus the WoB mods. Should be better, especially for reaching the damn high MOQ.

[tlt]

"make the base set US/GB. Then we can have a DE/DK/NO/SF pack"
Do you mean a complete DE/DK/NO/SF pack with alpha keys included?

Otherwise it would mean no help from US/GB users to reach MOQ and we still need to buy there special keys to get a complete set.

One giant set is an interesting idea.

[IvanIvanovich]

The BIG problem is, most of the ANSI people seem to refuse to buy at all if they can't have their way. Between US and Asia buyer it's the major player. I guess I could make a US/GB pack, but there really isn't that much keys... and there are some keys from US/GB that are needed for others anyway. Otherwise we have the same keys in multiple packs, I think it's better to avoid that.
If I break the German/Nordic into a group, you get all the correct keys no cut down thing and the price won't be terrible. Same goes for the Spanish/Portuguese/Japanese group. It will have all the right keys without any compromising of taking away the altgr legend versions. So you won't have to concession to get all the correct keys to appease anyone else on saving a few dollars. I think everyone will be happier with that don't you?

[tlt]

Yes, that would make me (and probably most people) happy as long as we reach MOQ on the language packs.

[matt3o]

make one big language package, you probably lose 2 orders and gain 10. Put as many languages as possible in it, because they are the 3/4 not-so-famous language purchases that make the difference!

In my humble opinion, that is the only way to have a chance to reach the MOQ. If we don't, so be it. Lesson learned for the next time. This is not a business after all, we do not have to relate to the shareholders.

edit: by ansi/iso pack I of course mean a big alpha language pack

[Muirium]

Thought experiment: how hard would it be to reach MOQ on a "global language pack" (that includes everything necessary to add to the inevitable base US ANSI, for all feasible languages)? If it seems plausible on volume alone: packs are worth exploring. If even this extreme example feels out of reach: then literally every other language pack option is impossible.

Anyway, these US ANSI weenies (I use their layout too!) can shuddup and be pleasantly surprised by all the ÈXTRÅ caps they get for free somehow. Unless you spell it out for them, they'll be oblivious until they open their surprisingly international boxes!

[tlt]

make one big ANSI package, you probably lose 2 orders and gain 10. Put as many languages as possible in it, because they are the 3/4 not-so-famous language purchases that make the difference!

In my humble opinion, that is the only way to have a chance to reach the MOQ. If we don't, so be it. Lesson learned for the next time. This is not a business after all, we do not have to relate to the shareholders.

I agree. Feels like the only way.

[BimboBB]

I also would be happier to use the power of ANSI to make the languages possible and just going for one big pack plus mods.

[tlt]

Buying other languages keys should be mandatory otherwise this will turn in to a standard ansi layout GB

[IvanIvanovich]

I think it's not so much that they don't want to help (well maybe some are that way) but it's the sheer cost of 'everything' together that is putting most buyers off. It's impossible to have it both ways. Either it has 'everything' or it is cheaper to get only what you 'need'.

Other languages, what is left that was ever made by Cherry? We would need French/Belgian, Swiss, former Yugoslavia aka Southern Slavic layout. Was there ever Czech/Slovak or Hungarian in doubleshot? I think that is it?
There was probably some other stuff that was pad print onto some US/GB/DE sets or what have you but it won't count.

[IvanIvanovich]

If we go in this direction, the changes that would be made:
BASE with US/GB:


GENERIC:


MODS:


NAV:


I'm still working on getting the German/Nordic, Japanese/Portuguese/Spanish packs right and will have them up shortly.

[tinnie]

I think it's not so much that they don't want to help (well maybe some are that way) but it's the sheer cost of 'everything' together that is putting most buyers off. It's impossible to have it both ways. Either it has 'everything' or it is cheaper to get only what you 'need'.

Other languages, what is left that was ever made by Cherry? We would need French/Belgian, Swiss, former Yugoslavia aka Southern Slavic layout. Was there ever Czech/Slovak or Hungarian in doubleshot? I think that is it?
There was probably some other stuff that was pad print onto some US/GB/DE sets or what have you but it won't count.

A Korean got a G81-3004 SAT

[tlt]

Buying other languages keys should be mandatory otherwise this will turn in to a standard ansi layout GB

Sorry for being unclear I meant that if there is a set for just the ansi stuff that one will probably reach MOQ an nothing else. If we want other languages like DE/DK/NO/SF we need to not have just ansi as an option.

[pix3l_fodder]

Spot on Ivan I like those changes. Still kinda wish there was a 1.25 blank window!

[IvanIvanovich]

German/Nordic


Japanese/Portuguese/Spanish


For you that use these layouts everyday, please check I didn't miss anything, make mistake.

There is a little redundancy between the two, but I think it will be less grief this way since they can each stand alone, and not add 'bloat' to the base US/GB set without more bitching.
Hopefully with smaller cheaper set, it will still not be an epic battle to reach the MOQ.

[matt3o]

even the most popular of the language kits (that might be DE I guess) will hardly reach the 100/200 orders. The only way to reach the MOQ for all languages is to merge them, not to reduce price. That's my very biased opinion

[IvanIvanovich]

I agree with you in principle, but I am afraid it's not going to work in practice. There is too much working against us, with peoples attitudes, the MOQ and the pricing. All we can do is try and prove there is market for other languages and keep working together to improve the situation in the future.

Don't forget to help us by reaching out on your regional computer forums and so on to help try to attract more buyers for these languages. The best thing we can do is drag more people into the keyboard cult

[rindorbrot]

I think I spotted an error in the DE/Nordic pack.
The 5 key should have no € symbol on it (at least for DE, I'm not sure about Nordic), € is only on E.

[IvanIvanovich]

According to pictures some Nordic layout have € on 5%, there is plain 5% in the base set along with plain 1! 4$ to have the correct numrow on DE.