Coming up with a layout for first custom >65% keyboard

[scottc]

Hello!

I've spent some time recently trying to come up with a compact but not tiny layout for my first custom keyboard project. I'd like it to be something like:
- a bit smaller than TKL and a lot more compact (no bare plastic/wasted space)
- arrow keys
- F1 - F12 accessible without using function layer - nope, changed my mind here

So my first attempt at this turned out like this (and please ignore all of the silly legends!):

Link: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/# ... ecafc8c1bc

It turns out that this is pretty similar to the Keycool 84, which I hadn't really encountered before. It's no fun making a custom keyboard if the end result is going to be really similar to a shop-bought model, what's the fun in that?! Also, as you can probably tell by me running out of ridiculous modifier names, I can't really think of anything for the row of keys on the right-hand side to do, anyway... We have to go smaller!

On to the next iteration: Reduced the size of some keys, removed some modifiers from the right, and managed to fit the arrow key cluster in the bottom:

Link: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/# ... 0792f4f1e1

Problems: left shift is so small! It looks ridiculous and I'll probably never find a single-unit shift key. And the function key might result in a claw-hand while trying to PgUp/PgDn.

Looking at my laptop, the function key is bottom-left (where ctrl usually is) and I quite like it there. So I tried to move Fn down there, increasing the length of left shift:

Link: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/# ... fcd4c54916

It's an improvement, but the spacebar is probably a bit too far to the right, and probably a bit small. And again, 4.5 unit spacebars are going to be difficult to find.

Reducing the size of the modifiers and removing some of the right modifiers lets me have a slightly larger spacebar, back to the normal 6.25U. Moving Function over to the normal location of left Ctrl frees up space to re-center it too:

Link: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/# ... 87ce5e5b41

...and this is where I'm stuck. I'm thinking of maybe putting Fn in place of caps lock because... caps lock. The function layer, as it stands, isn't hugely featureful at the moment either. As well as PgUp, PgDn, Home and End, I'm planning on working Print Screen and some others into the layout too.

Any suggestions? Comments, criticism, hate-mail, etc. are all welcome.

Finally: thank you to the maker of keyboard-layout-editor: you have saved me a lot of time, and Steely made by matt3o for giving me the idea to make my own keyboard in the first place!

[Muirium]

Custom keyboards are something else! I made one with Matt this year, and already plan to do another. Beware: you could end up in the same boat! Steely has a lot to answer for…

Round 5 has you covered for weird keys: single unit SHIFT in three colours! I'm going deep so I'm well armed for creative layouts. 7bit's group buys are easily the most exhaustively comprehensive for unusual options. Round 5 is getting ready for production soon (is that Matt laughing?) so it's ideally timed for you. Well, if you like tall spherical SA profile double shots.

As for your layout: nice evolution. You're also going in a similar direction to Filco's Minila (what with the nonstandard staggering) I see. I'm more into a straight 60%, myself, with HHKB influences mixed with Poker in my project. But I'm thinking of a larger layout next time, for variety, along the lines of a TKL without the function row, and with a small space bar for more creative mods. Might even move the arrow cluster somewhere else as well. We shall see.

Anyway, welcome to the next group build if you're up for it!

[matt3o]

great progression scottc. I also like 65% keyboards, I don't feel the need of a function row, but you may find interesting the layout I developed for the ducky competiion



The good about it is that it still keeps a default staggering (which you had to turn down) and also the arrow cluster is slightly detached from the mod row. This is of course done to make easier to find the arrows.

This is probably the layout of my next custom keyboard.

[scottc]

Custom keyboards are something else! I made one with Matt this year, and already plan to do another. Beware: you could end up in the same boat! Steely has a lot to answer for…

Round 5 has you covered for weird keys: single unit SHIFT in three colours! I'm going deep so I'm well armed for creative layouts. 7bit's group buys are easily the most exhaustively comprehensive for unusual options. Round 5 is getting ready for production soon (is that Matt laughing?) so it's ideally timed for you. Well, if you like tall spherical SA profile double shots.

As for your layout: nice evolution. You're also going in a similar direction to Filco's Minila (what with the nonstandard staggering) I see. I'm more into a straight 60%, myself, with HHKB influences mixed with Poker in my project. But I'm thinking of a larger layout next time, for variety, along the lines of a TKL without the function row, and with a small space bar for more creative mods. Might even move the arrow cluster somewhere else as well. We shall see.

Anyway, welcome to the next group build if you're up for it!

Looks great! I was actually hoping to get my hands on the Space Cadet-style keys for my own build. Your proposed layout sounds pretty much like how I'd like to have mine, though I'm slightly apprehensive about getting rid of the function row (but then again I'm not fortunate enough to be a HHKB user). Maybe I'll just take the jump and go straight to 65%-ish.

Round 5 keycaps would be amazing, though I don't think that I can quite afford them right now... but that would definitely be a one of the classiest ways of getting my first Cherry keyboard!

great progression scottc. I also like 65% keyboards, I don't feel the need of a function row, but you may find interesting the layout I developed for the ducky competiion



The good about it is that it still keeps a default staggering (which you had to turn down) and also the arrow cluster is slightly detached from the mod row. This is of course done to make easier to find the arrows.

This is probably the layout of my next custom keyboard.

Ooh, very interesting layout. I think that I'd probably go for ANSI because it pains me to see such a gigantic enter key on a tiny compact keyboard. I'm used to ISO because of my current laptop, but my Model F and SSK are both ANSI so I'm trying to adjust to using them more. I'm tempted to go with something like this, without a function row. It would certainly make it a lot easier to design. Hmmm!

[bhtooefr]

There's always going for the Kishsaver enter, which is ANSI but missing 1 U on the left side.

[Muirium]

True. The Kishsaver is pure magic:

IMG_3542.jpg (970.99 KiB) Viewed 9947 times

A logical 60% layout older than the original Macintosh keyboard!

ANSI is definitely the way to go if that is your preference. ISO is awkward, once you're used to it.

[scottc]

I think the Kishsaver enter key is a little too small for my sausage fingers, alas! I don't really have a strong preference for either ANSI or ISO, just ANSI seems a more logical layout to get used to if I'm going to have my ANSI IBM boards around anyway.

If I dumped the Function row, I could get away with this:


Which is similar to matt3o's layout in some ways, but beefed up with more modifiers, plus ANSI'd. And I've fixed the non-standard staggering!

[bhtooefr]

Remember that (with some drawbacks) there's always 1/4 unit that can be pulled out of the right side without even hurting ISO or Kishsaver layout.

And 1/2 unit if you don't mind breaking ISO, too, although that particular layout would probably start to get ugly when you do that. But, it might enable some other ideas. Hmm.

Edit:

15.5 U wide, 68 keys for ANSI. ISO gets broken but is still doable (Apple did it on Alps), Kishsaver is impossible:



Right shift gets a bit tiny there. Standard 6.25 U spacebar, which cramped the bottom row some. Also, I go for palming the left Fn. A few things that a tenkeyless would have aren't mapped on that one, though.

[scottc]

Remember that (with some drawbacks) there's always 1/4 unit that can be pulled out of the right side without even hurting ISO or Kishsaver layout.

And 1/2 unit if you don't mind breaking ISO, too, although that particular layout would probably start to get ugly when you do that. But, it might enable some other ideas. Hmm.

Edit:

15.5 U wide, 68 keys for ANSI. ISO gets broken but is still doable (Apple did it on Alps), Kishsaver is impossible:



Right shift gets a bit tiny there. Standard 6.25 U spacebar, which cramped the bottom row some. Also, I go for palming the left Fn. A few things that a tenkeyless would have aren't mapped on that one, though.

That's pretty cool actually, but I'd be concerned about breaking compatibility with normal keycap sizes by pulling out that fraction of a U. It's definitely worth experimenting, though, because I could get an ISO |\ key if it were reduced to 1U... hmmm! I'm trying to stick to mostly normal key sizes (apart from the 2*2U shift in my non-standard staggering idea) to try to make getting caps a little less difficult. That, and a smaller spacebar.

[bhtooefr]

What profile are you wanting to run?

I'm assuming DSA? Because ISO backslash is in a different row (usually 4, IIRC, occasionally 3), but DSA only has one row profile. And, there probably won't be an ISO backslash in DSA I'm thinking (but the SP PDFs don't list some stuff that exists, there apparently is a DSA ISO enter).

Here's what you can get in DSA that's on that board:

1x1
1x1 homing bump or bar
1x1.25 (right Shift, Fn)
1x1.5 (Backspace, Tab)
1x1.75 (Caps Lock, ANSI Enter)
1x2.25 (left Shift)
1x6.2 (space - this one isn't listed in the PDF) - there's also a 1x6 if you want to grab a quarter unit from somewhere else.

1x2 is also available, and would be needed for ANSI Enter (and you'd add 1/4 unit to right Shift, backslash, and Backspace) if you added the 1/4 unit for ISO compatibility. However, I don't think there's the right size ISO enter for that anyway in DSA.

If you go DCS, rows matter, but here's what you can do (first pass is ANSI):

Row 1: Everything from 1x1 to 1x2, no concerns there, you'd use 1x1 and 1x1.5 (or 1x1.75 if you added the 1/4 unit)
Row 2: Same as 1, plus 1x1 homing bump, no concerns there, you'd use 1x1 and 1x1.5 (and 1x1.25 if you added the 1/4 unit)
Row 3: Same as 2, plus 1x1 homing bar, 1x2.25, and 1x3, no concerns there, you'd use 1x1, your choice of 1x1 homing bar or bump, and 1x1.75 (and 1x2 if you added the 1/4 unit)
Row 4: Same as 1, plus everything from 1x2.25 to 1x3, no concerns there, you'd use 1x1, 1x1.25 (or 1x1.5 if you added the 1/4 unit), and 1x2.25
Row 5: Use row 4 keys, no concerns there, you'd use 1x1, 1x1.25, and 1x6.2 spacebar - there's also a 1x6, a 1x5 (that's getting small), and a 1x4.5 (that's getting tiny) if you want to tweak things more.

For ISO, you'll need the 1/4 unit added in, and you'll remove the 1x1.25 backslash in row 2, as well as the 1x2 Enter in row 3, replacing them with the 1.25x2x1x1 row 2/3 ISO enter and a 1x1 in row 3. Then you'll move to row 4, remove the 1x2.25 left shift, replace it with a 1x1.25, and add a 1x1.

[scottc]

Hmm, I hadn't actually thought about profile yet. I haven't done my homework on profiles yet so I'm not sure. I've been loosely basing possible keycap sizes on what's available from 7bit's Round 5 just to keep things practical (but not paying a huge amount of attention to profile).

[matt3o]

I believe you can cover that last layout with Round 5

[scottc]

I believe you can cover that last layout with Round 5

It's reassuring that the layouts can be covered, but I think it's still too early for me to go and buy caps already. Plus, I had the idea of trying to do this with clicky ALPS instead of Cherry MX the other night... I even have some moderately nice keycaps around on a strange rack-mount keyboard that I could use.

[bhtooefr]

I wonder, how hard would it be to get SP to do a 1Z mount group buy?

DSA, of course. What else?

[matt3o]

I asked for a quote a while back. the problem comes with stabilizers and also I seem to recall that they miss some tooling for a complete keyboard. I should have that email somewhere...

[bhtooefr]

Then the question becomes, which of the several methods of stabilization would be best?

If it's just for custom boards, no reason to stick with Alps stabilization, right?

[matt3o]

sure, cherry stems for stabs and alps stem for switches would be feasible.

[scottc]

I would love a chance to make an ALPS board. The only reasons for picking Cherry over ALPS for me is the availability of caps. Like I said above, I've never had a Cherry board before and I don't know very much about Cherry, but it's going to be a lot easier to source unusually-sized caps for those.

I've been toying with the layout some more. I had initially given up on keeping it 15U wide because I was a bit put off by non-standard staggering, but I think I'd prefer the non-standard stagger to having to have an extra row of keys on the right. Here's where I am now:


Link: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/# ... d9811bd7de

What I've tried to do here is keep it as symmetrical as possible. I know this isn't as possible with the ANSI enter vs. Caps Lock, but I can't do much about that. I've tidied up the bottom row, splitting it up into 3*5.0U sections, split up by the spacebar. I think having the spacebar in the dead center looks great and should feel a lot more comfortable than having it off to one side.

Next idea: I noticed that since I'm mostly used to ISO, so whenever I want to hit backspace I usually go via enter. So I tried to incorporate HHKB-style backspace into the design:



The main reason I was worried about moving Esc into the tilde key position was for using the shell on Linux. In ISO, I can type ~/ pretty quickly, which is nice. Hopefully this will be just as easy to get used to! And this is even more symmetrical than before!
Link: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/# ... c6e549dca9

I'm going to work some more on the function layer, but otherwise I'm actually very satisfied with the layout. I (somehow) managed to incorporate arrow keys into a tiny layout and don't have the problem of having too many keys to figure out what to do with. I'm going to borrow a friend's HHKB to check out how my muscle memory feels about the backspace position and see how I deal with using alt+F4 through a function layer. I'll have to try out the staggering but I'm sure that 0.25U won't make too much of a difference - I've typed on dodgier laptop layouts before and it's been fine.

[Muirium]

The staggering will probably feel fine. Just beware of finding the right caps. There really is no competition in group buy selection to 7bit's smorgasbord approach, so if he hasn't got it consider this A Bad Sign.

Speaking of which: your 5 unit space bar. I love that 5u-5u-5u approach and I'd put it straight in my next custom… if I could find 5 unit space bars. 7bit has 4.0, 4.5 unit and then 6.25; so no dice. The irony being the 5 unit space bar on my Mac right here in front of me. Blast!

[scottc]

I've been pretty cautious about checking up the sizes available in Round 5, and I had thought that I'd seen a 5U spacebar before. Damn! I suppose I could just go to 4.5U and make that Hyper 1.25 and maybe Control 1.5, but I don't think it would be quite as nice.

I'm sure that I saw a 5U spacebar *somewhere*, now I just have to figure out where to make sure that I'm not just going nuts...

Edit: So it turns out the 5U spacebar was indeed just wishful thinking on my part! This is how it turns out with 4.5U, in my opinion not nearly as aesthetically pleasing as before:


Link: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/# ... af49acccd7

Edit again: My thinkpad, sitting on my lap, is staring me in the face and laughing because it has a 5U spacebar!

[matt3o]

I tried the weird staggering on the minila. It's not a big issue, but sometimes I found myself typing weird things. I guess you need some time to get 100% used to it. Personally it's something that I prefer to avoid on my main driver because when you get used to weird staggering you feel uncomfortable on all other keyboards. Anyway, like I said, it's something you can live with.

The backspace spot is just perfect imho, it's way more natural than the default position. I would review the control position instead, like it is now it would be very hard for me to reach comfortably.

btw, great layout. I can only suggest to use a more standard spacebar size to make it future proof.

[scottc]

I tried the weird staggering on the minila. It's not a big issue, but sometimes I found myself typing weird things. I guess you need some time to get 100% used to it. Personally it's something that I prefer to avoid on my main driver because when you get used to weird staggering you feel uncomfortable on all other keyboards. Anyway, like I said, it's something you can live with.

The backspace spot is just perfect imho, it's way more natural than the default position. I would review the control position instead, like it is now it would be very hard for me to reach comfortably.

btw, great layout. I can only suggest to use a more standard spacebar size to make it future proof.

I'm slightly put off by the weird staggering for the same reasons that you mention, but I think that having an arrow cluster on a small keyboard is more important to me. Maybe I'll pull the arrows out to the right, but I'd rather not have the extra keys.

I really like the backspace where it is too, and I'm really happy that it puts ~ on a key of its own, which means that I can dump the F1-F12 row and move esc down, which I really like (thanks HHKB!).

The thing about control is that my last two laptops have both been Thinkpads and I've gotten used to the function key in the bottom left, followed by control. I think this is standard in Macs now too. I think it's okay with the sizing on my laptop (1U Fn, ~1.25U Ctrl) but I agree that it might be a bit of a stretch. Maybe I just have fingers like a piano player. Hopefully Ctrl on the left being larger than the others will look more natural than it does now, let's see:


Link: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/# ... 54c908c19d

Looks good! I'm disappointed about the 5U spacebar, though, it would be nice if it were available.

[Muirium]

I did actually sneak in an inverted T block of cursor keys at the bottom right of my layout:

Custom 60% Layout 6.1.png (490.48 KiB) Viewed 9752 times

Can you see them? The trick is to think symmetrically, rather than straight 1x1. They're actually really roomy and right where I want them to be: in the corner.

The layers have changed a lot since my drawing, but the concepts are all there, and then some! I made the top right keys backquote and backslash, as I've caps for those, and made eject into the system power key via Fn+backslash.

Having two function keys was a big win for me. You can always reach one, and an extra layer for edge case keys is always useful to have: when pressing both at once. I have more planned once Soarer implements layer locks.

[scottc]

Ah, nice! Ideally they'd be there for me too, but it was particularly awkward for me to fit them in there. I definitely want arrows on the default function layer because... *ducks for cover* even as a Vim user, I use them a lot for manipulating text while programming.

A question about the function lock bit: Why not implement layer locks in the controller firmware itself? I haven't looked at the code, though, so it could be the most entirely non-trivial thing in the world.

[scottc]

Also, I figured out a semi-reasonable compromise for arrow keys and staggering:



But the staggered arrow keys look awful! If I go with that layout, I would have no problems whatsoever getting keycaps (apart from the 4.5U space, which I could probably get from a Round X leftover thread for some X) since I might be receiving a set of G81-7000 doubleshots that already have a 1.75U right shift.

[Muirium]

Urk! I wouldn't do that if I were you. If it looks right, it is right… if you can find the caps. 4.5u space is brand new to Round 5 by the way. I'm picking up various small space bars to keep my options open this time.

I'm just using Soarer's Controller, because I'm lazy, and it isn't open source yet. Layer locks will have to wait until Soarer has polished his code and opened it up. Maybe I'll put a few LED layer indicators behind the number row. My Teensy still has a few spare pins.

[scottc]

Urk! I wouldn't do that if I were you. If it looks right, it is right… if you can find the caps. 4.5u space is brand new to Round 5 by the way. I'm picking up various small space bars to keep my options open this time.

I'm just using Soarer's Controller, because I'm lazy, and it isn't open source yet. Layer locks will have to wait until Soarer has polished his code and opened it up. Maybe I'll put a few LED layer indicators behind the number row. My Teensy still has a few spare pins.

Yeah, I think that the extra five quid spent on 2.0 unit keycaps and different stagger is probably worth not having the awful staggered arrows!

Ah, you said Soarer's Controller, I read Soarer's Converter - probably just a force of habit! I thought you were just using something like the TMK keyboard firmware I'd noticed around the forums and using Soarer's converter upstream for function layer tweaks. Sounds good. Speaking of which, I think I'll use Soarer's controller in my own custom keyboard whenever it's built, thanks!

[Muirium]

Both Soarer's Converter and Controller are top notch and well worth recommending. They're actually built from the same source, he says, and will eventually be merged as their similar names suggest.

The controller is a drop in solution that's just as easy to handle as the converter, with the same software tools and syntax. It doesn't do absolutely every feature I dream of in a controller, but it's very almost there! Its only downside is its closed source (Soarer will open it someday) which means I can't hack around with it, or more likely, use other people's artful hacks!

Speaking of which, Matt3o always builds from source. He might have something worth reading on the subject soon enough.

By the way: 7bit just added a 3 unit space bar to Round 5. I can't resist…

[scottc]

Both Soarer's Converter and Controller are top notch and well worth recommending. They're actually built from the same source, he says, and will eventually be merged as their similar names suggest.

Sounds excellent! I'll give it a go when I have some free time. I have an Arduino Leo hanging around here that I've been meaning to temporarily convert into a Soarer Converter.

Speaking of which, Matt3o always builds from source. He might have something worth reading on the subject soon enough.

Great! I like building from source so that I can tinker with individual things if I'd like to. Sounds good!

By the way: 7bit just added a 3 unit space bar to Round 5. I can't resist…

Oooh, very tempting! I'm this close to making a last-minute HONEY purchase. Speaking of which, here's my next go:


Link: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/# ... 0d85013be3

It's similar to a HHKB in layout, but with the extra navigation keys without the need for a function layer. Since my Thinkpad died an unfortunate and unexpected death, I've occasionally been using the Dell Mini 9, with this questionable compact layout:



It reminded me about two things about compact layouts:
- F1 - F12 aren't a deal-breaker when left out (this keyboard doesn't even provide F11 or F12 on the function layer - WAT!)
- 4.5U is PLENTY for a spacebar
- Right shift is actually useful, but not when it's so tiny that it's awkward to press.

With that in mind, I came up with the next layout. Hopefully I won't find anything annoying with this one.

Any thoughts on it?

[scottc]

Aaaaaaaand here's what my CAD drawing looks like:



It's supposed to be this layout: