Matias Ergo Pro Keyboard @ ErgoExpo 2014

Matias · 07 Dec 2014, 01:56

Here are a few photos of a pre-production Ergo Pro that we demo'd at ErgoExpo last week. Feel free to post questions...

: 1 - Ergo Expo - P1050576.jpg (153.83 KiB) Viewed 9803 times

: 2 - Ergo Expo - P1050588.jpg (195.33 KiB) Viewed 9803 times

: 3 - Ergo Expo - P1050536.jpg (187.85 KiB) Viewed 9803 times

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: 8 - Ergo Expo - Palm Supports - P1050583.jpg (147.37 KiB) Viewed 9803 times

: 9 - @ErgoSleuth votes for Pink - P1050594.jpg (170.76 KiB) Viewed 9803 times

: 10 - Ergo Pro - Palm Supports - P1000735.jpg (100.36 KiB) Viewed 9803 times

webwit · 07 Dec 2014, 02:54

Haha those palm supports remind me of different case colors for phones. You're a player!

Now lend DT one for (p)review!

Muirium · 07 Dec 2014, 10:58

Yup. The question is: can we try one? Oh, and which kind of your switches did you go with for it? And when's the wireless one due out the lab!?

vivalarevolución · 07 Dec 2014, 14:58

Looks great, definitely smaller than I expected, and the matte balck finish rather than the gloss on the usual Matias keyboard is a good look. Well done.

roncri · 11 Dec 2014, 00:23

Really interested in this keyboard but starting to worry about it actually ever being available. Wasn't the original release date supposed to be August, and then December and now I see it's been pushed out again till February. Sorta glad I didn't place a pre-order.

webwit · 11 Dec 2014, 00:56

I think he might be scared of DT reviewing it. Aaaw, come on. We'll let Beardsmore review it, he'll be tender.

andrewjoy · 11 Dec 2014, 02:21

Cool looks very nice, i am guessing tactile and not click right ? That would be nice.

Dont rush it out , have it out when its ready.

jacobolus · 11 Dec 2014, 11:05

Muirium wrote: Yup. The question is: can we try one? Oh, and which kind of your switches did you go with for it? And when's the wireless one due out the lab!?

Pretty sure these are sold with the quiet (dampened tactile) switches. But you could certainly swap in some Alps switches if you wanted to.

Matias · 16 Dec 2014, 07:11

Thanks for all the questions...

Muirium / webwit, yes we'll certainly provide one to DT for review.

It'll ship with the Quiet Click switches...

http://matias.ca/switches/quiet/

If we get enough demand for other switches, we'd consider offering those too.

prdlm2009 wrote: Looks great, definitely smaller than I expected, and the matte balck finish rather than the gloss on the usual Matias keyboard is a good look. Well done.

Thanks, it is still polycarbonate but with a subtle texture that is definitely less prone to fingerprints.

roncri wrote: Really interested in this keyboard but starting to worry about it actually ever being available. Wasn't the original release date supposed to be August, and then December and now I see it's been pushed out again till February. Sorta glad I didn't place a pre-order.

It was a much bigger project than we expected, so it's taking longer than expected, but if you're concerned that the delay is some sort of indicator that it won't ship, it's quite the opposite -- we've invested so much time and money in this product, there's no way we could *not* ship it.

andrewjoy wrote: Cool looks very nice ... Dont rush it out , have it out when its ready.

Thanks, that's our thinking too.

This is the biggest project we'd done so far -- especially when you include all the time we spent designing keycaps specifically for it.

Muirium · 16 Dec 2014, 12:08

Great stuff! I'll be delighted to review it, if everyone's cool with that.

webwit · 16 Dec 2014, 13:39

Go for it!

scottc · 16 Dec 2014, 13:51

Muirium wrote: Great stuff! I'll be delighted to review it, if everyone's cool with that.

Are you sure you don't just want the free keyboard?

(...I know I would!)

Muirium · 16 Dec 2014, 13:54

I don't *need* to keep it. But it would be my first taste of a modern split ergo and Matias switches, so I'll have a fair bit to write about!

cookie · 16 Dec 2014, 14:00

Kickass keyboard, I really like this one!
But is it fully programmable?
Does it have PBT caps?
Why is the layout staggered?
Will there be a white one available?

So many questions

bhtooefr · 16 Dec 2014, 14:16

I believe Matias has previously said they're against programmable keyboards because it makes it easier for the NSA to put rogue firmware on.

And, it's a hell of a lot easier to sell a staggered layout, I'd guess, because that's what people are used to.

Muirium · 16 Dec 2014, 14:56

I agree with one of those two statements!

bhtooefr · 16 Dec 2014, 15:19

Here's the quote by the way:

Matias wrote:1) Modifiable firmware on a keyboard is an unnecessary security hole. We live in a world where the NSA (and others) intercept electronics shipments, and flash their firmware to introduce security vulnerabilities. I can't stop them from doing that if they really want to, but I don't need to make it easy for them.

Muirium · 16 Dec 2014, 15:23

So, by that logic:

Modifiable firmware = could contain spookware, but you can remove it.
Unmodifiable firmware = could contain spookware, but you can't remove it.

Down with our programmable tyranny! Freedom is slavery!

bhtooefr · 16 Dec 2014, 15:27

Of course, I'm not sure about the smaller boards, but the full-size Matias boards carry their controller on a daughterboard, and there's no warranty seals to breach to get at the controller, so a controller swap would be absolutely trivial.

Muirium · 16 Dec 2014, 15:46

Good stuff. Not as nice as a built in programmable controller, but the next best thing. Integrated controllers right on the switch PCB are where it's all or nothing. Too many boards are like that. I assume for cost reasons. Though I wonder how damn expensive a programmable controller is, given we hobbyists can get a Pro Micro for five bucks.

chzel · 16 Dec 2014, 16:00

It's not more expensive, it's basically the same chip with a couple of fuses set to make it OTP (one time programmable).
What is expensive is the technical support afterwards...
"I was flashing my keyboard in a thunderstorm and I bricked it...FIX IT!" or whatever.
It's either that, or quite a bit more HW/FW development to make it more robust.
And if you need it "hardened" (NSA-or-whatever proof), you could either go for OTP encapsulated controller, or wide open for all people to check (OSS).

Muirium · 16 Dec 2014, 17:15

True. But not exactly unexplored terrain. Give us a Void Warranty switch we have to flip to reprogram it, which leaves a permanent trace. Could even just be under a sticker!

Daniel Beardsmore · 16 Dec 2014, 19:42

What is the difference in cost between the Poker II's controller, and the cost required for a controller that is likewise soft programmable, but with the refinements needed to make it fully programmable (be that through a serial API, or through the ability to key in scan codes, or what not)?

I mean, the Poker II is programmable from the keyboard itself, without any warranty-voiding alterations — you don't even have to open up the keyboard.

I don't know what's stopping the Poker II from having scancode bindings or the ability to move Pn and Fn — whether this would somehow tip the firmware over some cost limit, or that Vortex ran out of time, or simply lack imagination. I understand that having a serial programming interface accessible over USB would demand more of the controller (code size, RAM etc), but I would have thought that you'd be able to squeeze a bit more functionality into the Poker II firmware, and the Poker II isn't an expensive keyboard either.

vivalarevolución · 17 Dec 2014, 18:05

I don't know why we should expect these keyboard manufacturers to offer a programmable controller. The majority of their customers does not give two shits. They use QWERTY, or can download a key remapping software app if they want. To appease the small geeky segment like ourselves should not factor into the mass production of their products.

Muirium · 17 Dec 2014, 18:21

In the case of Matias, he's already doing things in his marketing like appealing to concerns over wireless security and the potential for spooks to hijack our keyboards. That's pretty nerdy stuff too. Yet it's not entirely out of place in the mech keyboard realm. Because we are already a slim minority of the overall keyboard market, and far from a random one!

Daniel Beardsmore · 17 Dec 2014, 20:08

prdlm2009 wrote: I don't know why we should expect these keyboard manufacturers to offer a programmable controller.

Two words: KFC keyboard.

Halvar · 17 Dec 2014, 20:24

Muirium wrote: ...concerns over wireless security and the potential for spooks to hijack our keyboard...

These are essential features in the professional world if you ask me ... I have no idea how a company that doesn't have that can ever be sucessfully audited for IT security. Unlike the need to swap Ctrl and Caps Lock ...

Muirium · 17 Dec 2014, 21:00

I can do that one in software. The programmability I care about is layers and macros.

Anyway, we all know what business needs from its keyboards:

Done.

Matias · 17 Dec 2014, 22:01

bhtooefr wrote: I believe Matias has previously said they're against programmable keyboards because it makes it easier for the NSA to put rogue firmware on.

It sounds a lot more ridiculous if you put it like that.

bhtooefr wrote: And, it's a hell of a lot easier to sell a staggered layout, I'd guess, because that's what people are used to.

That would be true.

Daniel Beardsmore · 17 Dec 2014, 22:05

Muirium wrote: I can do that one in software.

Depends. Software reconfiguration has zero effect in Windows with remote control software, which reads scancodes directly. Rebinding is also troublesome because high integrity processes (including elevated processes) disconnect any keyboard hooks when their windows are active: F10 on my PC is mapped to minimise, but if I open Task Manager—which is non-elevated high integrity—it does nothing as AutoHotkey does not have the required integrity. (I replaced StrokeIt with StrokesPlus, which does have the required integrity (through code signing and API calls) to interact with high integrity processes without needing elevating upon login, so StrokeIt can for example minimise Task Manager with a gesture where StrokeIt could not.)

The only way in Windows to remap keys truly is via Registry alteration software, which a) requires you have administrator privileges, b) cannot be experimented with (not without endless reboots), and c) is not tied to the keyboard: if you cycle through keyboards, a remap to suit one, will screw up the rest.

OS X might not have the same limitations; OS X from day one always did give users far more privileges. Windows still has no per-user fonts, nor any clean workaround (XP was fine so long as you gave one or more users or groups write access to %SYSTEMROOT%\Fonts).