Which mechanical keyboard can replace my 14 year old Tulip ATK

[shreebles]

Gateron clones are a better option now.

Please, µ, you are competent, why do you have to perpetuate a myth iniated by excited fanboys?

You, of all people, who doesn't even like MX switches!

Gaterons are the cheaper option. But we are striving for luxury in keyboards, aren't we?
Whats 100€ for something you can use every day for at least 5 years?

Ok then, they look nice with the clear housing. Wow. Put the keycaps on and never see them again.

Alright what else have they got? They are smoother. This isn't rocket science, nor is it magic plastics. They are lubed. Anyone can lube MX switches. Your mother could do it. It's an advantage that they come pre-lubed from the factory, but not every switch benefits (looking at you, Gateron Brown).

They are different. The stems are not an exact copy of Cherry. This can be good (Zealio) or bad (most other Gateron switches).

The housings are not a good copy either. Proper Cherry keycaps keep getting stuck on the top housings, so you have to sand them down or change them for genuine Cherry. Wtf??

The bottoms seem a good copy, but their metal leaf is different, rounder and thinner. This results in a bouncy, floaty feel and annoying, springy sound. Yes the switches themselves are smoother but what good is it if the actuation point is so imprecise?

Lastly the springs. They copied the weights but not the tolerances of Cherry. People with better measurement equipment than me have found the weights in a single batch of Gaterons differ by quite a bit.

I bought a bunch of 65g Zealios and could not make them work for me at first.
After some experimenting, I changed the switch tops first (due to my keycaps getting stuck on the top), and changed the springs to light Cherry springs. Eventually I even changed the switch bottom to Cherry because of the metal leaf on Gaterons being annoying. So now I use only the Zealio stems in a Cherry switch, and that is the only combination I consider good.

That kind of negates the price and simplicity advantage of Gaterons (although it does give me a nice and unique switch).

[seebart]

All this summarizes what I read about Gaterons = Cheaperons = Craperons. Lousy MX knock off I guess, not that I have or will ever try them.

[shreebles]

Not lousy, and most likely the best knockoff there is. But still a knockoff, and different from MX.
Even a good difference, in case of the Zealios stems.
But the rest, not so much, if you used Cherry MX before.
Do give them a try if you feel like trying something different, and use OEM caps for them. They are cheap after all.

[Muirium]

Cherry MX: Think Inside the Switch.

Or, you know, choose life, choose sanity, choose another switch!

I spoke kindly of Gaterons because the handful HzFaq kindly sent me do indeed feel much smoother than modern MX. Cherry's really gotten sloppy lately. MX seems to still be getting scratchier, judging by the awful reds in the Cherry MX Board 6.0 I tried. (Now with Andy for some mods.) The MX design is a classic and can make excellent linear switches, but Cherry's lost it when it comes to quality control, and has done over the course of many years. Every modern MX board I try is a major letdown. I'm yet to try a board full of Gaterons, though. They've got the buzz — a leading contender for this year's Best Switch Deskthority Award — and now I've tried some loose ones I'm willing to give them a try in a full keyboard. But you are quite right that I don't know them yet. Beware the fable of Mitsumi Miniatures!

As for modding, Keycap made the crucial point already: modding MX switches is a nightmare on most boards you can buy. I wouldn't recommend an experience like that to anyone just starting out! MX is a project these days, not a product.

[andrewjoy]

There is one Gateron in the MX 6.0 now as i did not have a black to hand to fix the space bar you broke the switch was fine but i wanted something a little stiffer ( helps quite a bit with the terrible spacebar).

I look at it like this, MX are a known element , we know they will last for a long time , we know they are built to a certain spec. But other than that they are terrible. Its not just lube ether , you can take a Gateron stem out and look at it, the plastic is simply higher quality its smoother with less moulding marks.

I have not tried a board full of them but hopefully that will change when i get around to it.

Cherries where better but now they are just scratch sand on the stem rubbish. They do get better with age ( heavy use) , the reds in my filco are much much nicer than the ones in the 6.0, i honestly don't know how they got through QA like that, they genuinely feel like they have crap inside them.

[seebart]

Nah, MX has it's place in my collection, vintage MX blacks that is. I've tried worse.

[andrewjoy]

Nah, MX has it's place in my collection, vintage MX blacks that is. I've tried worse.

Even old blacks ( not vintage) are fine i have a late 90s early 2000s cherry with blacks (NIB too) and that is not bad at all , same with my Access and Tipro both feel fine. Compared to a modern black or red..... not even a comparison. Its cherry that feel like a knock off of the true high quality product cherry was even up to the 90s / early 2000s

[ATK]

So the only problem with the Tulip is that it's gone yellow? Perhaps you could try retr0bright to whiten it and keep the board?

Wilkie, you're my hero! Gonna try to give it a good rub with retr0bright and see if I can keep my board. I'm just madly in love with my Tulip, so saving her is the best option.

Regarding a new board, it's al about the switches. The SMK switches on the Tulip are really different from Cherries (the SMK's are really, really smooth), so anything that comes closes to the SMKs is a winner, regardless of noise or size (hell!, let them know I'm typing, that's the price they're gonna pay if they take away my beloved Tulip )

ATK

[andrewjoy]

try space invaders

http://deskthority.net/wiki/NMB_Hi-Tek# ... 97-KANA-10

They are superb ! Most also come with PBT caps. No more yellowing!

[Muirium]

So the only problem with the Tulip is that it's gone yellow? Perhaps you could try retr0bright to whiten it and keep the board?

Wilkie, you're my hero! Gonna try to give it a good rub with retr0bright and see if I can keep my board. I'm just madly in love with my Tulip, so saving her is the best option.

Like every miracle cure, there are downsides to Retrobright too:

http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/ret ... t6084.html

ABS plastic is the enemy. My space invader board has PBT caps, but an ABS case. A picture says it all:



IBMs are pretty impervious to yellowing. Besides that, only dark keyboards are any good at hiding it. Keyboard bodies are forever made of bloody ABS even if the caps aren't!

[codemonkeymike]

Just to stick my nose into the Gateron debate, when I got my ergodox with gateron browns I first noticed the smoothness over my Cherry Browns in my Das Ultimate. After a little use I noticed some problems, I was miss clicking a lot. Some of it is bouncing wich outputs the character twice and another bit is the differences between the switches in the same board. Needless to say if I do another Cherry mount board I will be doing real Cherry MX Browns, which I will lube myself.

[andrewjoy]

Or just nab the stems from the Gaterons and put them in a real cherry . Best of both worlds !

[shreebles]

Or just nab the stems from the Gaterons and put them in a real cherry . Best of both worlds !

Yeah, that's what I did in the end. Purple Zealio stems and the rest Cherry MX. Really nice switch but so expensive. Makes it hard to like Ergo-Clears anymore because they are so rough and bumpy.

Or, you know, choose life, choose sanity, choose another switch!

Choose insanity due to the lack of options you will have without MX, in Europe

Every modern MX board I try is a major letdown. I'm yet to try a board full of Gaterons, though.

That has to do with the fact that most of the modern keyboards themselves are a letdown, not just the switches. After the Costar-quality Quickfire Rapid, most mechanical keyboards today are built by iOne and similar OEMs. Manufacturers put effort into fancy lighting, because that's what kids want these days. Unfortunately, few people other than us get excited about a keyboard only because it types really nice. I believe that this is why the Novatouch had a difficult start in Europe.

But really the Gaterons are different when installed, more on that below.

MX is a project these days, not a product.

Stock Gaterons are not a finished product either. You need Cherry switch tops if you want to use Cherry keycaps.

I look at it like this, MX are a known element , we know they will last for a long time , we know they are built to a certain spec. But other than that they are terrible. Its not just lube ether , you can take a Gateron stem out and look at it, the plastic is simply higher quality its smoother with less moulding marks.

They are built to a certain spec and they respect their own spec. That's why 20 year old dye-subs fit fine on modern MX switches while getting stuck on Gaterons.

I am no plastics expert, but are you? I see no molding marks worse on Cherry than on Gateron. The plastics are simply different. Gaterons are lighter in color, and have thicker legs on the stem. The Cherry tactile legs were thinner but also longer. Due to this, the Gaterons feel softer and smoother, but the tactile bump becomes barely noticable. On Cherry Brown, it is rougher but sharper, more defined.

I have not tried a board full of them but hopefully that will change when i get around to it.

Please do, I totally changed my tune about these when I had them installed. They make clinky sounds, and have that floaty feel to it where I just can't feel the actuation and type very wonky as a result.

Cherries where better but now they are just scratch sand on the stem rubbish. They do get better with age ( heavy use) , the reds in my filco are much much nicer than the ones in the 6.0, i honestly don't know how they got through QA like that, they genuinely feel like they have crap inside them.

What kind of keycaps does your Filco have?
Did you ever change keycaps on the 6.0?
Consider this, I thought the Rapid-i was a pretty horrid keyboard with its stock, thin ABS, translucent coated keycaps. I'm pretty sure the 6.0 has the same type. But after putting some thick doubleshots on there, they felt way different (better).
Then again, I have not tried the MX 6.0 myself. But between a Quickfire TK, Rapid-i, and a few Rapids (old and new) MX reds felt 90% the same, the Rapid was obviously the best due to the Filco-like construction.
And a Filco is for many the benchmark of quality for a stock MX keyboard. At their price, I wouldn't be surprised to find that those Japanese hand-pick their switches

[codemonkeymike]

If expense is a worry, go with a JD40 or OLK Plank

[andrewjoy]

And a Filco is for many the benchmark of quality for a stock MX keyboard. At their price, I wouldn't be surprised to find that those Japanese hand-pick their switches

Thick PBT on the filco but also round 4 , i switch.

I have tired some thin double-shots on the 6.0 and it felt better as a switch but it did not help the scratchy stem. Even without caps they are scratchy. Without the stem the flico is nice and smooth, no vintage black but it feels beamspring smooth vs the 6.0.

There must be something they are doing that means that the switch they make now is not as smooth, possibly the injection mould is worn or they use inferior raw materials i don't know. The rest of the cherry switch is fine , its just the sandpaper stem that puts me off.

[Wilkie]

So the only problem with the Tulip is that it's gone yellow? Perhaps you could try retr0bright to whiten it and keep the board?

Wilkie, you're my hero! Gonna try to give it a good rub with retr0bright and see if I can keep my board. I'm just madly in love with my Tulip, so saving her is the best option.

Like every miracle cure, there are downsides to Retrobright too:

http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/ret ... t6084.html

Not a problem. It only has to last long enough for ATK to find a new job where they appreciate his keyboard