Trump v Clinton: who do you support?

How would you vote if you could vote?

Vote enthusiastically for Trump
12
14%
Vote enthusiastically for Clinton
8
9%
Vote for Trump because you despise Clinton
12
14%
Vote for Clinton because you despise Trump
19
22%
Refuse to vote because you despise them both
30
34%
Undecided
6
7%
 
Total votes: 87

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

05 May 2016, 00:39

webwit wrote: OK, but then I don't understand why you don't agree it's simple to see she did something naughty with her own email server setup.
She did something naughty, and got caught trying to clean up an embarrassing mess. She is an ugly old whore.

But anyone who uses - let's face it - relative trivia - to justify not using the power at their disposal * the vote * to allow
(if you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem)
the (fill in the blank of your choice) plutocracy to continue to degrade the human race and the planet Earth
by doing whatever you can to somehow short-circuit the continuing advance of the Republican juggernaut -
then you are guilty (as an accessory) of a crime against humanity by your passive complicity.
Last edited by fohat on 05 May 2016, 00:56, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

05 May 2016, 00:44

fohat wrote:
webwit wrote: She is an ugly old whore.
:o :lol: Oh jeez, thanks for that fohat. I love it when you DT'lers entertain me.

User avatar
Muirium
µ

05 May 2016, 00:53

To be fair, Donald's a gargoyle too. Hillary was fairly hot a few decades back. Not that this should matter one iota, but it's after hours here at the DT saloon…

User avatar
seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

05 May 2016, 00:55

They're both zombies, at least one aspect of the race is fair. Not sure who's got the better hair though. :lol:
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Last edited by seebart on 05 May 2016, 01:01, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

05 May 2016, 01:01

Muirium wrote:
To be fair, Donald's a gargoyle too
http://sensitiveskinmagazine.com/ronald-reagan/

User avatar
Muirium
µ

05 May 2016, 01:01

Yeah. I backed Obama, of course, in 2008. (He was a much better candidate than Hillary. Pity his presidency was an apology for the fundamentalists squatting in congress.) But even so, I had respect for John McCain. His age compared to Obama, along with his horrible posture thanks to torture as a POW in Vietnam, was striking. And some liberals loved to take the piss out of McCain during the debates on Twitter just for that. Disgusted me. He was a good man, fighting for the wrong cause perhaps, but an authentic goddamn war hero who deserves some fucking respect.

Compare that with Trump's remarks about the man. Arsehole!

jacobolus

05 May 2016, 01:03


User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

05 May 2016, 01:08

fohat wrote: the Republican juggernaut - is guilty of a crime against humanity.
Here's where you (and Muirium) and I disagree. IMO the difference between republicans and democrats is only the way in which sociopaths going for power address two different demographics in order to get the vote and gain power, while both don't represent the people but the same powerful rich companies, families and entities (such as the army and affiliated commercial companies). This is not a USA only problem. I think most western democracies (exceptions for example are Switzerland and Iceland) have been gamed by the powers that be to give you the illusion you vote for something, be it abortion, health care or whatever partisan issue they use irrelevant for the real status quo, but all the votes are basically for the same caste, whatever demographics they game to get the vote. Democracy has been gamed since Edward Bernays for sure (his work is every political sociopath's wet dream and first study) and in less sophisticated terms, since forever. Because the majority of people are idiots, with extremely short term memory (freely quoted from Bernays).

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

05 May 2016, 01:12

Muirium wrote:
He was a good man, fighting for the wrong cause perhaps, but an authentic goddamn war hero who deserves some fucking respect.
Operative word: "was"

Sarah Palin? Are you fucking kidding me?

I went from significant respect (like you) to utter horrror and absolute disdain in an instant.

His words and deeds since have mostly demonstrated his fall from grace.

But even Trump (who could well have gone to 'Nam) broke the bonds of civility with his public diss of McCain.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

05 May 2016, 01:20

No mention of Carly Fiorina's shortest ever vice presidential candidacy? :mrgreen:

User avatar
Muirium
µ

05 May 2016, 01:29

Ah, Carly. She'd do to America what she did to HP. Fortunately, the good people of Indiana did that to her first!


@Fohat: Sometimes I'm sneaky and cram a lot of backstory like that into a single word! Palin 2008 was a prelude to Trump 2012. Same voters love them both, and many more plain hate.

jacobolus

05 May 2016, 01:47

webwit wrote: IMO the difference between republicans and democrats is only the way in which sociopaths going for power address two different demographics in order to get the vote and gain power, while both don't represent the people but the same powerful rich companies and families.
This kind of reductionism is harmful. There is a significant difference between the two US parties, and elections have dramatic measurable consequences, to workers rights, reproductive rights, the environment, the US economy, likelihood of aggressive wars, limits to state surveillance, support for public infrastructure, scientific research funding, support for education, etc.

Few if any politicians are “sociopaths” in a clinical sense. All tend to be ambitious, and many are narcissists, and some have very little real life experience and suffer from weak imaginations (Cruz is a stand out example here), but that’s equally common among people with high status in other professions. There are plenty of narcissists among the best known athletes, actors, academic researchers, doctors, lawyers, etc., and even more among corporate executives.

Most politicians have some sense that they are trying to help “the people”, especially when first starting out. Unfortunately, casual corruption is the name of the game almost everywhere (Switzerland and Iceland are by no means exceptions here), and for many it is easy to confuse “winning the game” with the original purpose, effective governance. The problems are systemic rather than individual. Particular politicians should be held accountable for ethical lapses, but we shouldn’t be distracted from working on systemic fixes.

For example, modern US congressmen need to spend approximately all of their waking hours on fundraising if they want to win elections. This is completely toxic to democracy, and campaign finance reform is the only way to claw ourselves back to sanity. Similarly, gerrymandered districts which place most incumbents into “safe” seats reduce public accountability. Allowing various kinds of disenfrancisement and voter suppression to be successful strategies diverts political attention into figuring out how to best block various groups from voting or how to best prevent the blocked voting, on the margins; a better systemic fix would be to make elections a mandatory holiday, register all citizens by default, make sure all voters have easy access to information about the election, and work to make voting convenient for everyone. The parties should be striving to convince the populace to back their ideas, not striving to completely block those who disagree from participation. Allowing the US senate to indefinitely block judges and other executive appointments fundamentally breaks down the interaction between branches of government; journalists should be hounding lawmakers about this and citizens should be throwing GOP senators out of office if they continue to refuse to do the jobs they are paid for. At the state level, judges should not be elected, state congresses should not have short term limits, and the mechanism of the popular ballot initiative which cannot be overridden by lawmakers should be abolished as fundamentally dysfunctional. Etc.

None of these suggestions are at all radical changes to the system of government, but each would make dramatic difference in practice. There are dozens of similar changes.

As humans, our defining characteristic is the capability for learning. Our governments today are better in general than the governments of, say, the 18th century. We can keep improving though.
Last edited by jacobolus on 05 May 2016, 01:53, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

05 May 2016, 01:52

Muirium wrote:
@Fohat: Sometimes I'm sneaky and cram a lot of backstory like that into a single word! Palin 2008 was a prelude to Trump 2012.
About 1/3 of the way down in the Sullivan article:

The climate Obama thrived in, however, was also ripe for far less restrained opportunists. In 2008, Sarah Palin emerged as proof that an ardent Republican, branded as an outsider, tailor-made for reality TV, proud of her own ignorance about the world, and reaching an audience directly through online media, could also triumph in this new era. She was, it turned out, a John the Baptist for the true messiah of conservative populism, waiting patiently and strategically for his time to come.

You guys should really read it, I didn't just link it as fluff.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

05 May 2016, 02:12

jacobolus wrote:
webwit wrote: IMO the difference between republicans and democrats is only the way in which sociopaths going for power address two different demographics in order to get the vote and gain power, while both don't represent the people but the same powerful rich companies and families.
This kind of reductionism is harmful. There is a significant difference between the two US parties, and elections have dramatic measurable consequences, to workers rights, reproductive rights, the environment, the US economy, likelihood of aggressive wars, limits to state surveillance, support for public infrastructure, scientific research funding, support for education, etc.

Few if any politicians are “sociopaths” in a clinical sense. All tend to be ambitious, and many are narcissists, and some have very little real life experience and suffer from weak imaginations (Cruz is a stand out example here), but that’s equally common among people with high status in other professions. There are plenty of narcissists among the best known athletes, actors, academic researchers, doctors, lawyers, etc., and even more among corporate executives.

Most politicians have some sense that they are trying to help “the people”, especially when first starting out. Unfortunately, casual corruption is the name of the game almost everywhere (Switzerland and Iceland are by no means exceptions here), and for many it is easy to confuse “winning the game” with the original purpose, effective governance. The problems are systemic rather than individual. Particular politicians should be held accountable for ethical lapses, but we shouldn’t be distracted from working on systemic fixes.

For example, modern US congressmen need to spend approximately all of their waking hours on fundraising if they want to win elections. This is completely toxic to democracy, and campaign finance reform is the only way to claw ourselves back to sanity. Similarly, gerrymandered districts which place most incumbents into “safe” seats reduce public accountability. Allowing various kinds of disenfrancisement and voter suppression to be successful strategies diverts political attention into figuring out how to best block various groups from voting or how to best prevent the blocked voting, on the margins; a better systemic fix would be to make elections a mandatory holiday, register all citizens by default, make sure all voters have easy access to information about the election, and work to make voting convenient for everyone. The parties should be striving to convince the populace to back their ideas, not striving to completely block those who disagree from participation. Allowing the US senate to indefinitely block judges and other executive appointments fundamentally breaks down the interaction between branches of government; journalists should be hounding lawmakers about this and citizens should be throwing GOP senators out of office if they continue to refuse to do the jobs they are paid for. At the state level, judges should not be elected, state congresses should not have short term limits, and the mechanism of the popular ballot initiative which cannot be overridden by lawmakers should be abolished as fundamentally dysfunctional. Etc.

None of these suggestions are at all radical changes to the system of government, but each would make dramatic difference in practice. There are dozens of similar changes.

As humans, our defining characteristic is the capability for learning. Our governments today are better in general than the governments of, say, the 18th century. We can keep improving though.
Nah there isn't a significant difference. Wall of text won't help you, nobody is gonna read that shit. Even to the corrupted European perspective, both Democrats and Republicans are of the right neo-liberal side, except for the deluded. Even the Soviet Union did better in variety of vote. You haven't even parsed a single bit of what I said or of Edward Bernays, because you are in blind partisan mode, trying the defeat "the enemy". Perfect prey. I'm not even sure why I am talking to you. Didn't you use an Ad Hominem to cheaply attack me on the person, and still failed to provide an adult counter argument on the actual issue?

jacobolus

05 May 2016, 02:43

webwit wrote: Nah there isn't a significant difference. Wall of text won't help you. Even to the corrupted European perspective, both Democrats and Republicans are of the right neo-liberal side, except for the deluded. Even the Soviet Union did better in variety of vote. [...] I'm not even sure why I am talking to you.
This is what I mean by tendentious, confused, and boring in predictability.
Last edited by jacobolus on 05 May 2016, 03:13, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

05 May 2016, 02:45

Jesus another cheap ad hominem attack and cheap logical fallacies. This means by default I'm right and you're a nasty asshole trying to divert. Try better. Use actual arguments on the issues. But you can't. Can't admit Clinton is corrupted by erecting that email server, can you? Better attack the messenger. Nasty.

Edit: you edited.

jacobolus

05 May 2016, 02:50

.
Last edited by jacobolus on 05 May 2016, 03:12, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

05 May 2016, 02:53

@webwit
@jacobolus

I tell my kids to: "Stop bickering!"

Identifying problems and formulating solutions is important.

Most of us here have a general notion, at least, of what the fundamental problems are.

However, with entrenched planetary power structures as they are, viable solutions are incredibly difficult.

Let's focus on coming up with real solutions to real problems.

Not working towards solutions is allowing the status quo to continue.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

05 May 2016, 02:59

jacobolus wrote: Again, ad hominem means something different than you think it means
No it doesn't. I graduated in Latin. Again, try to provide an actual counter argument on my opinion about the Clinton email gate. You're diverting again.

jacobolus

05 May 2016, 03:00

Anyway, I’m done with this thread. Webwit: having a basic conversation with you is soul sucking. It’s like trying to enjoy a dinner of hamburger with a group of militant vegans. You win, all political parties are irredeemably corrupt, the world is going to hell in a handbasket, and the only solution is suicide.
Last edited by jacobolus on 05 May 2016, 03:01, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

05 May 2016, 03:00

No counter argument, eh? Only attacks on the person.

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

05 May 2016, 03:29

jacobolus wrote:
You win, all political parties are irredeemably corrupt, the world is going to hell in a handbasket, and the only solution is suicide.
Painfully close to truth.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

05 May 2016, 03:45

There are other solutions than suicide. Such as taking our weapons (beam spring keyboards) and revolt. Or bickering on an Internet mechanical keyboard forum. :mrgreen: This will surely sway the vote.

User avatar
chuckdee

05 May 2016, 05:46

webwit wrote:
jacobolus wrote: Again, ad hominem means something different than you think it means
No it doesn't. I graduated in Latin. Again, try to provide an actual counter argument on my opinion about the Clinton email gate. You're diverting again.
Which doesn't really mean anything, apparently. Because you are misusing ad hominem in each of your attempted applications. He's not arguing the point with an attack against you. He's merely stating painfully obvious truths about your statements. You don't really seem to want to debate points. You just want to condescend, and demonstrate your obvious intellectual superiority.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

05 May 2016, 10:53

More shitty attacks on the person and no counter arguments on the issue. Are you gonna edit too?

User avatar
Muirium
µ

05 May 2016, 11:05

What point are you trying to achieve? From the outside it's indistinguishable from trolling. This is politics, there is no perfect, easy, indisputable answer to anything. Especially for the voters.

In theory: start a new party, set the ball rolling on a years long project to create a mass movement of fellow minds. And discover the ultimate fraud that is the election system which will piss all over you.

In practice: bicker pointlessly with all comers on the Internet, and sit out the election.

The best way to have a democratic say is to make billions of dollars and either buy politicians or become one yourself. So step one must be to make billions of dollars. How much is that Fort Knox you keep stocked with keyboards worth?

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

05 May 2016, 11:36

Appeal to accomplishment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_accomplishment

Keep ignoring her email server ;)

User avatar
Muirium
µ

05 May 2016, 14:01

Will do, chief!

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

05 May 2016, 14:18

webwit wrote:
Appeal to accomplishment.
At the lowest intellectual level, there is probably an emotional satisfaction to the argument:

"The insiders have screwed it up so badly that only an outsider could fix it."

So if Clinton is the insider to the politics game and Trump is the insider to the money game, then which group is responsible for the problems, who holds the solution, and are the 2 groups intractably intertwined anyway?

No matter how you look at it, Bernie is the only clear and rational choice.

User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

05 May 2016, 14:35

chuckdee wrote:
vivalarevolución wrote: I do not believe teenagers should be able to vote. I also believe the voting age should be raised to 25, because I certainly do not trust my 18-year-old self and college self and even a year out of college self to vote. There are things you learn as an a self-supporting adult that you cannot understand as your younger self.
You've just described probably a good portion of those that are over 25. Age is not a sufficient delimiter for voting rights if you're going to start setting a higher bar to the ability to vote. And everyone is not the same, no matter what criteria you attempt to use. Why else is television and the money spent there so important and influential on the race? People don't want the truth, they want to be told what to do.
This discussion has gone in a different direction but I didn't full explain myself here, so I will elaborate. I set this age as a delimiter because I figure it's the point in life that most of us are supporting ourselves through our own income, have an idea of that challenge, and are more conscious of the amount of money leaving out paycheck to pay for government services. At this point in life, a person might be less enthusiastic to raise taxes on X group or throw tax money in certain directions. The 18-25 demographic may not be aware of these aspects of the flow of earned, taxed, and spent money.

Since 2008, young people are voting in greater numbers, and it skews some of the political discussion to expanding taxes and government without much understanding of the effects of those actions on an individual. I also think college campuses put too much and emphasis on "social justice" through government without realizing the responsibility thst each of us bear for our own lives and treating each with respect. I remember watching this all firsthand on a college campus in 2008 and really started to question all the poor political arguments thrown out by the two parties and college kids.

Obviously, I admit that my argument is on a premonition, full of holes, generalized, paints a broad stroke, and easily disproven. I am limited by my own life experiences on the matter. Raising the voting age does not address the poor judgment of many over 25 voters or address greater problems with the political system, but perhaps it would make the discussion a little less juvenile and focus on more efficient taxation and revenue distribution. I don't know. But I'm typing on a phone and making detailed arguments with my right thumb is too much of a hassle.

Oh, and I agree, many people don't want the truth or put forth the effort to question what they are told to believe. Some of us are perfectly satisfied following a "strong" leader or ideology.

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