Let's make the worst layout ever!

[depletedvespene]

BTW, I've just had a fantastic idea that builds upon Laser's underkeys concept. People that fancy 60% keyboards like 'em, in part, because omitting the F row allows for more compact units (and people who hate the 60%... things... mostly do for this very same omission). How about compromising? Let's put the F row on the rather underutilized backside of the keyboard so we can both have the cake and eat it! The space between the Esc and F1 keys would remain as is, allowing the USB plug to remain located there, as is the case in the present.

[Laser]

And three switches on the front side - mouse buttons

[depletedvespene]

I was thinking of putting the mouse buttons (plus wheel) on one side of the keyboard, so as not to interfere with the wrist rests that seem to be all the rage these days.

You know what? Let's put them on BOTH sides, to accomodate lefties and righties.

[sealclubber]

What about an ergodox with each half on top of a mouse?

[Findecanor]

And three switches on the front side - mouse buttons

Of course the left button should be on the left side of the keyboard and the right button should be on the right side of the keyboard. It's only logical.

What about an ergodox with each half on top of a mouse?

Something similar has been done a few times already and people thought that was a good idea.
The KeyMouse has gone through several iterations, but I don't know if you can yet buy one.
The Combimouse has the right side be a mouse, with fewer keys that are instead on the left keyboard half.
The Glide keyboard is non-split but light, moved around with friction against the wrist rest.

For the "Worst layout ever.".. why not have the mouse-keyboard rest of four balls: one in each corner, for balance.
None of these fancy-schmancy optical sensors: With four mouse-balls you get four times the precision .... uh, right?

No problem with Shift + Shift = CAPS.

When I first used my Phantom, bpiphany's firmware had Shift + Shift enter the bootloader. I noticed that I sometimes entered the bootloader accidentally, so I had to edit the source code to have that changed.

[Laser]

And three switches on the front side - mouse buttons

Of course the left button should be on the left side of the keyboard and the right button should be on the right side of the keyboard. It's only logical.

The "flipper" keyboard! Excellent idea - and a middle button on the frontside - the "Tilt" switch!

For the "Worst layout ever.".. why not have the mouse-keyboard rest of four balls: one in each corner, for balance.
None of these fancy-schmancy optical sensors: With four mouse-balls you get four times the precision .... uh, right?

Nice, moving the keyboard moves the mouse - the Ouija keyboard!

No problem with Shift + Shift = CAPS.

When I first used my Phantom, bpiphany's firmware had Shift + Shift enter the bootloader. I noticed that I sometimes entered the bootloader accidentally, so I had to edit the source code to have that changed.

This annoying solution shouldn't be of course available to the user, the "double shift enters the bootloader" must be hardcoded so that the user doesn't have to worry that the combination ever changes its role.

[depletedvespene]

I've been thinking deeply about this... so far, we're including keys on the topside, keys on the underside, keys on the sides, the F row on the back... topologically speaking, this is not any different from (you know where this is going) a sphere. So, with the help of a friend who made the render for me, let's see a quick and dirty rendering of an spherical keyboard.

Spherical keyboard (quick and dirty illustration).

sphere.png (475.98 KiB) Viewed 6544 times

This, of course, is just a first idea of how to approach this. OBVIOUSLY, the equatorial row will need to have 2U keys, the tropical rows will have to use 1.5U and 1.25U keycaps, and the rest of the surface 1U keys, in diminishing numbers as they approach the poles.

A lot still needs to be worked out — starting with the dimensions of the sphere and the actual number of keys to place. Also, at least one of the polekeys (the one in the South Pole, duh!) will have to be sacrificed to put the USB plug a small cover for the battery compartment (because no one in his or her right mind will doubt for a minute that this needs to be wireless).

I'm still unsure of whether to go for a flat profile for the keycaps or to prefer a sculpted one — "North Cherry" and "South Cherry", for example. Although, it has to be said, this opens up the risk of someone playing fast and loose and making a "marsie" keyboard with a "North OEM" and a "South DSA" profile combination. EEEEEWWWW.

Ain't it wonderful, how some novel concepts evolve into unexpected shapes?

[davkol]

derp

[samuelcable]

Maybe it serves the original purpose well, but otherwise…

Sigma dick lmao

[depletedvespene]

Maybe it serves the original purpose well, but otherwise…

I... uhhhh... WHAT?!?!?!?!

But, hey, not many keyboards have an F0 key.


What IS this things original purpose, anyway?

[Laser]

"für folgende Sigma-registrierkassen" -> "for the following Sigma cash registers"

[depletedvespene]

Cash registers? Wouldn't a keyboard designed for a cash register arrange the numbers in a numpad?

I'm not complaining about the F XT layout anymore, after seeing this.

[Laser]

It's possible this was an alphanumeric add-on to a cash register machine that had those numbers in a numpad already, looking at e.g.:



or

[Chyros]

:p

[davkol]

derp

[davkol]

derp

[Chyros]

The old typematrix was cheaply made and there were some questionable choices made regarding stabilizers, but the layout is fairly decent for touch typing.

In particular, the claim that "hands are still in the same position" and there's "no ergonomic benefit" is just plain wrong, and your whole rant is a projection about how you can't type well.

I have my own issues with the modifier layout on that keyboard, though, and I don't think the form factor and overall layout goes far enough.

I really don't think you deserve to be on the high horse you're talking down to me from :p .

"Typing well" is probably not a good choice of words in your case; I'm pretty sure 99% of computer users will not find that a nice layout to use :p . You may like it, sure, but don't make it sound like I'M the weirdo here :p .

[depletedvespene]

……… don't make it sound like I'M the weirdo here :p .

Aren't we ALL weirdos here already?

[Chyros]

……… don't make it sound like I'M the weirdo here :p .

Aren't we ALL weirdos here already?

Haha yeah, that's definitely true I guess xD .

[kbdfr]

The old typematrix was cheaply made and there were some questionable choices made regarding stabilizers, but the layout is fairly decent for touch typing.

In particular, the claim that "hands are still in the same position" and there's "no ergonomic benefit" is just plain wrong, and your whole rant is a projection about how you can't type well.

I have my own issues with the modifier layout on that keyboard, though, and I don't think the form factor and overall layout goes far enough.

I really don't think you deserve to be on the high horse you're talking down to me from :p .

"Typing well" is probably not a good choice of words in your case; I'm pretty sure 99% of computer users will not find that a nice layout to use :p . You may like it, sure, but don't make it sound like I'M the weirdo here :p .

That's how such reviews are made: claiming objectivity when in fact simply asserting bold assumptions.
Even ripster's coin-o-meter had more objectivity in it

(Sorry, I couldn't resist . Going back to work… and observer mode )

[Laser]

But it's true that ortholinear keyboard layout *is* considered more ergonomic than staggered, so it doesn't matter if 99% of computer users don't feel familiar with it, when first put in contact with such a keyboard. So Chyros, you do deserve a bit of bashing there

"Since I can't type on this, it's not ergonomic" (?)

[ZedTheMan]

But it's true that ortholinear keyboard layout *is* considered more ergonomic than staggered, so it doesn't matter if 99% of computer users don't feel familiar with it, when first put in contact with such a keyboard. So Chyros, you do deserve a bit of bashing there

"Since I can't type on this, it's not ergonomic" (?)

Two words: Vertical stagger.

More words: I always found ortholinear funky and awkward, I'm sure some prefer it ergonomically but really it's kinda the lame middle ground between normal horizontal stagger and the superior for ergonomics vertical stagger.

[Findecanor]

Two words: Vertical stagger.

I agree. If you are supposed to have your wrists orthogonal to the keyboard, then a vertical stagger or a symmetric horizontal stagger would have been better than this.

Also, the very small amount of hand separation and lack of angle between key halves makes it worse for most users' wrists than how most people type on a "regular" keyboard.

... Or, users would adapt to not lining up their fingers into columns at all.

[Chyros]

But it's true that ortholinear keyboard layout *is* considered more ergonomic than staggered, so it doesn't matter if 99% of computer users don't feel familiar with it, when first put in contact with such a keyboard. So Chyros, you do deserve a bit of bashing there

"Since I can't type on this, it's not ergonomic" (?)

First of all, why do you even care if I type ergonomically or not? :p

Second, why is ergonomic better? I mean, just because you can, doesn't mean you NEED to. Since the amount of people with RSI is smaller than the amount of people without, on balance, clearly most don't.

Third, where is it written that ortholinear is more ergonomic than staggered? Especially for all users? I've never seen anyone come up with a good argument in favour of ortholinear.

[samuelcable]

But it's true that ortholinear keyboard layout *is* considered more ergonomic than staggered, so it doesn't matter if 99% of computer users don't feel familiar with it, when first put in contact with such a keyboard. So Chyros, you do deserve a bit of bashing there

"Since I can't type on this, it's not ergonomic" (?)

First of all, why do you even care if I type ergonomically or not? :p

Second, why is ergonomic better? I mean, just because you can, doesn't mean you NEED to. Since the amount of people with RSI is smaller than the amount of people without, on balance, clearly most don't.

Third, where is it written that ortholinear is more ergonomic than staggered? Especially for all users? I've never seen anyone come up with a good argument in favour of ortholinear.

For once, I agree with your last statement. I do not see how it's any more ergonomic than staggered. It's different for sure but that doesn't magically make it more ergonomic. If all of our fingers were equally sized like some freakish abomination then I'd get the Ortho hype, but even after getting used to it I feel no ergonomic difference in it between staggered YMMV

Can't side with you on your other points though. Its ok to type in your own style if you type at a comfortable speed, but I don't support not learning touch typing, as it took me like a week to learn and I'm a dumbass slow learner (see my soldering jobs)

[depletedvespene]

Two words: Vertical stagger.

More words: I always found ortholinear funky and awkward, I'm sure some prefer it ergonomically but really it's kinda the lame middle ground between normal horizontal stagger and the superior for ergonomics vertical stagger.

Well, it's not that bad when you think about it. I tried to combine horizontal stagger and vertical stagger, and the results weren't good:

VandH2.png (24.31 KiB) Viewed 6123 times

Perhaps if I should place the keys in band instead of in bar?

[Laser]

But it's true that ortholinear keyboard layout *is* considered more ergonomic than staggered, so it doesn't matter if 99% of computer users don't feel familiar with it, when first put in contact with such a keyboard. So Chyros, you do deserve a bit of bashing there

"Since I can't type on this, it's not ergonomic" (?)

First of all, why do you even care if I type ergonomically or not? :p

Second, why is ergonomic better? I mean, just because you can, doesn't mean you NEED to. Since the amount of people with RSI is smaller than the amount of people without, on balance, clearly most don't.

Third, where is it written that ortholinear is more ergonomic than staggered? Especially for all users? I've never seen anyone come up with a good argument in favour of ortholinear.

In the end, what does matter is that, being a different layout, if you do a review of it without first trying to get familiar with the layout for a while, I can't take you seriously. It's like me typing on colemak, and complaining that I can't type.

[Chyros]

But it's true that ortholinear keyboard layout *is* considered more ergonomic than staggered, so it doesn't matter if 99% of computer users don't feel familiar with it, when first put in contact with such a keyboard. So Chyros, you do deserve a bit of bashing there

"Since I can't type on this, it's not ergonomic" (?)

First of all, why do you even care if I type ergonomically or not? :p

Second, why is ergonomic better? I mean, just because you can, doesn't mean you NEED to. Since the amount of people with RSI is smaller than the amount of people without, on balance, clearly most don't.

Third, where is it written that ortholinear is more ergonomic than staggered? Especially for all users? I've never seen anyone come up with a good argument in favour of ortholinear.

In the end, what does matter is that, being a different layout, if you do a review of it without first trying to get familiar with the layout for a while, I can't take you seriously. It's like me typing on colemak, and complaining that I can't type.

I think you're taking the review a bit too seriously mate .

[davkol]

derp

[depletedvespene]

At last but not least,

Xenophobia is the fear and distrust of that which is perceived to be foreign or strange.

Shouldn't we talking about xediophobia instead? I mean, this is specifically about layouts...