Definition of "Tactile"

[paperWasp]

Hearing (or rather reading) opinions on keyboard switches and pairing them with my own experience made me want to sum this up...

Random keypress prevention. Without making keys too heavy and tiresome for typing, only the very start is heavier and the weight of the further travel is light. True for many rubber domes.

"Bridge over the abyss". An extreme case of the above. Quite large force has to be put on the key until the "bridge" breaks, followed by unnecessary forceful fall to the bottom. Microsoft Natural Keyboard Pro is a good example of that. Loud and not great for typing tbh.

Tactile feedback. Making the typing user know - everything's all right, I've actuated. The bump doesn't have to be on the very top, it can happen more down but must be pronounced enough to be felt (buckling springs etc.).
I had some rubber domes that lied about that (e.g. a brand new Keytronic in 2002?) with several keys feeling actuated but in fact without the effect. Had to return it immediately.

Light tactile or "scratchy linear". Now I'm getting to a thin ice. Hated MX Browns & Blues. Oh... Really? (23 reviews of a keyboard with MX Browns: 21x 5-star, 2x 4-star - missing programmable features on the keyboard etc.)
I learn quiet typing in the silence of the night (not a good sleeper) without hitting the bottom, just stopping slightly under that little bump. Not very easy but possible. No problem with the "scratchy linearity" in daylight hours, shamelessly clacking around.

Micro movement editing. Tens of PgDowns while browsing through a photo gallery is a good example. Impossible with a "Bridge over the abyss", not easy even with many rubber domes. Great task for micro-switches and MX with their little bump in the middle (while I hate the creaking sound of my PgDn while doing this )

I'm not familiar with many other switches so there might be even other types of tactility?

[Lucid]

I am not sure what the point of this is. Are you trying to define an analogy for different types or levels of tactility? Are you searching for a unified definition of tactility? Or are you critiquing definitions of tactility put forth by others?

[Muirium]

Reads like the work of a beginner’s mind to me. Seeking insight and finding great complexity, where there is none.

All we mean by “tactility” is the feeling you get besides simple linear motion. It’s the touch feedback that helps you find the actuation point where the key is registered.

Really smooth linears like Maxi Switch Hall effect or Nixdorf MX blacks have no tactility at all. They slide smoothly through their whole key travel, only ending when you bottom out. It’s pleasant but it leaves the actuation point a mystery. You tend to press a lot further than you need to, because your fingers aren’t getting any feedback to tell you otherwise.

Everything from buckling spring to Topre domes has tactility. You feel something when you’re at the actuation point where you can stop. Some mechanisms have a click, whether it’s inherent (buckling spring) or grafted on (MX blue), but sound is irrelevant to tactility.

If you can feel the actuation point: it’s tactile. Otherwise: it’s linear.

Now, the way that tactility *feels* is another matter; and that’s what the OP is really on about. But when we talk about tactility, it’s ultimately in a binary sense: a switch is either tactile or it’s not. Its presence is objective, while its character is subjective, and can lead to never ending arguments getting nowhere!

Besides, there’s force diagrams for all that.

[paperWasp]

The point may look a bit hazy, I admit.
Maybe to show and discuss how loose the definition is...?
And that people may prefer different kinds of tactility?

[Muirium]

And that people may prefer different kinds of tactility?

They do, all right!

[paperWasp]

Maybe I shouldn't have opened this.
The understanding why manufacturers call some switches "tactile" and experienced experts in some internet communities don't find the same switches tactile at all made me wonder though...

[Muirium]

You mean MX brown by any chance?

People are often complaining about implementation. MX brown is tactile but very mildly so. They really do feel like dirty MX reds to many people, including me. MX clear is real tactility, but I don’t like those either, too gnarly. Subjectivity!

[paperWasp]

Indeed. MX is a good example of that.
People complain... but if you follow the link in the original post, you find that a keyboard with MX Brown switches gained almost clear 5-star rating from a larger group of users. Subjectivity!
But if the community finds them shtty, I'm stopping my trolling...

[Muirium]

Webstore reviews are no such thing. They tend to be dominated by well meaning simpletons. MECHA KEYBOARDS FIVE 55!! I never put much faith in them, anywhere on any product, because there’s an inverse relationship between experience and eagerness to fill that box.

You’re better off with YouTuber reviews than that. And this is not high praise! But at least when you know the reviewer, you can tell where they’re coming from. Webstore customers bias is that they just “invested” in this.

[paperWasp]

You’re better off with YouTuber reviews than that. And this is not high praise! But at least when you know the reviewer, you can tell where they’re coming from.

Like a renown reviewer with hands travelling randomly over a keyboard and pressing the space bar with his index finger, calling it a typing test?

Okay, I agree customers are biased. If they just paid for a new keyboard and it's far better than their failing old rubber dome thing, they give 5 stars. But not all of them. Some negative Amazon reviews made me stop wanting a desired keyboard in the past.
There are people who really know the tech, can do various mods, tried tens (if not hundreds) kinds of switches... but don't type much.

And there are also simpletons who can't almost tell the difference between USB and PS/2 ports but spend their days typing. These can tell if the keyboard is really good for typing (or gaming) or not.

[Muirium]

Ssh! Don't speak his name. You'll open up the gates of hades all over this thread!

I like to know someone's biases when I seek their opinion. We're all subjective, each in our own way, and you can get a fair sense of what to expect by seeing who's saying what about it. The only datum that actually matters is your own experience, but short of collecting every keyboard model ever made, popular opinion has a place.

[vvp]

According to deskthority poll MX Browns are liked about the same as MX Blues.
viewtopic.php?t=7377

I do not think that MX Blue click is grafted. It happens because the switch slider hits bottom. It is likely the goal of the slider was to provide a hysteresis to the actuation point(*) and the click is just a side effect. Something along the lines: it was cheaper to leave the click there therefore MX Blues are clicky.

(*) MX Blue switch releases higher than it actuates. This is a good feature if you do not want a single press to be miss-detected as double press (i.e. good for typist, possibly bad for gamers). It is arguable whether the click sound is a good feature.

[Muirium]

Nice try. That poll is almost a decade old, and the question is “Which mechanical switch is better for me?” Those last two words reframe it quite a bit.

I see I told the OP to try a switch tester instead of trusting random opinion. Still stand by that.

[vvp]

If the "for me" qualifier is to be honoured then the question is useless for a public forum full of persons who do not know the poster. But strictly from statistical point of view selecting something liked by majority is most likely to satisfy the poster.

I would say that switch tester is better than nothing but it does not help that much. Pressing one key on a tester is not the same as touch typing on a keyboard using that one switch type. Better to borrow all the keyboards (with their switch types) to consider and type few sentences on each one.

My first opinion is that a particular switch type importance is overrated. Only the difference between tactile and linear and the spring stiffness are somewhat important. Overall layout is more important. I'm using MX Blue, MX Brown and some scissor switches on laptops and the switch differences are rather irrelevant to me. Well, I prefer when there is some tactility there.

Yeah, it is a blasphemous opinion on a forum full of people obsessed by the slightest differences between different switch kinds. And whether the keyboard logo is just right and whether the serial number is negative, ...

[Muirium]

You could always run a poll of your own.

I am a snob, no doubt, but I'm not one who cares a shit about serial numbers or logo badge. I don't even have a single industrial IBM keyboard! They cost more for a different case colour, bugger that.

No, what matters to me, in descending order, assuming everything works: (so no Matias then…)

1. Layout
2. Keyfeel
3. Caps feel: profile and material
4. Noise

Sometimes 4 comes top! But not always, or I'd never touch my Kishsaver or any IBM.

Everything else is secondary. Case colour, key colour, legend typeface, etc,: no true significance like the above. The basics matter most.

Now what I mean by a layout is completely different from what Kbdfr prefers! 60% and TKL are the ones for me, in that order. I'll suffer a fullsize, but I certainly don't prefer it. Ungainly unbalanced things. And "layout" is easily defined in objective terms, unlike the infinite varieties of tactility!

Feel matters too, aye. Including the caps: big fan of cylindrical PBT, me; especially NMB and Topre's profiles, over IBMs and whoever came up with "OEM profile." Cherry profile PBT is a real treat, too. Caps like that can make the difference. Not as much as switches, but they're in the running.

None of these are about brand showboating, though. NMB weren't much, and I love their caps and their clicky switches so much on this. Sure, my HHKB is The One for me, and really does get as much use as all other keyboards combined. But it gets that because of what it does for me. If it were some other name on the shell, I'd be their fanboy instead!

[kbdfr]

[…] I am a snob, no doubt […]

Not going to comment that

what matters to me
1. Layout
[…]
Now what I mean by a layout is completely different from what Kbdfr prefers!

For those who don't know what Muirium means, here's my beloved daily driver:

Spoiler:

It is originally a multi-module point of sale keyboard using Cherry black switches.
Nothing could be less trendy by today's standards

Mu, your turn again!

[Muirium]

See what I mean? People really do have different needs and the preferences to match.

I’m guessing Mr. Choc doesn’t type with his keyboard on his lap much. That’s where 60% truly shines for me, and fitting into my laptop bag for travelling around. Less is so much more, for some of us, but certainly not all!

Now, I’m not into itty-bitty keyboards for fashion’s sake. I’m just into keeping things close to homerow, and making macros for the extra things I need. Sure you can do that with dedicated keys all over your Tipro or 122 key IBM, but I like doing that extended stuff in software, where there’s more tricks to be played than hardware alone can provide.

[robo]

I think paperWasp had a good point in their initial ramble about well implemented vs poorly implemented tactility, where the tactile feedback may not correspond with actuation. Cherry Browns are definitely guilty of this, where the actual actuation point is a bit further than the 'bump', and I think to some degree it's the case with most keyboards where the tactile feedback is implemented separately from the actuation (ie. non-capacitative rubberdomes, discrete contact based keyswitches like Cherry/Alps, etc) but if implemented carefully the effect can be negligible. Even with Cherry Browns it's negligible for normal typing, but in situations like OP describes of not pressing they key all the way down, it can become noticeable and frustrating.

It's one of the nice things about buckling springs where the tactility and actuation are one and the same, that there is never any ambiguity there.

[Palatino]

I agree with you about buckling springs - and there’s the additional satisfaction of the simplicity of the design (as in, small number of parts - not saying it was an easy design to come up with or manufacture). However, when just typing normally, as opposed to pressing individual keys slowly or repeatedly, I’ve never really had a problem with the actuation of a switch being too far removed from whatever tactile event it has - apart from on the worst sort of domes which need mashing right to the floor. Maybe this is an issue for lighter-fingered typists than myself. I actually like Cherry browns somewhat for typing, if I’m in a not very tactile mood. At other times I love my hugely tactile Zealios. I kind of like everything for what it is, at different times, so long as it’s not overly stiff, scratchy or mushy. This is why I find it so hard to say goodbye to any keyboard!

[Palatino]

Feel matters too, aye. Including the caps: big fan of cylindrical PBT, me; especially NMB and Topre's profiles, over IBMs and whoever came up with "OEM profile." Cherry profile PBT is a real treat, too. Caps like that can make the difference. Not as much as switches, but they're in the running.

Much truth here! I took out a nice white alps board the other day, switches in excellent condition, and immediately it felt sticky under my fingers. That semi-shined ABS is no match for PBT, and I’d just come from a heavy Model M or Topre stint. It’s partly why I love my BTC 5100C so much: I don’t know what plastic the caps are but they feel textured and not at all slippery. Same for the Hi-Teks, yes. Gorgeous keycaps. It’s probably time to mention those nos clicky space invader boards again. My, those nos clicky space invader boards feel good under the fingers! I’d maybe put cap feel on a par with switches in my priority list. But isn’t it nice that some boards come with excellence in both!

[Palatino]

PS I can’t find any Cherry PBT caps except on G83 rubber dome boards. Does anyone have some MX-mount Sublimationsdruck goodness?

[SK-8K]

There's some 3rd-parties making dyesub Cherry-profile PBT keycaps now. The quality of certain brands, I don't know.

[Shorle]

The quality of affordable third party dye-sub is lacking in my experience. If you are willing to pay more (especially with ISO NorDe) ePBT seems pretty good. Modern modifiers are included in that as well.
With vintage Cherry Dye-Sub you usually have to add your own R5 and are limited in regards to split keys.