Kinda curious: What makes Alps so sensitive to dust?

[Menuhin]

Just to add to the discussion.

Here's how one of those modern modified MX designs try to make the MX design more dust-proof:

[Polecat]

I assume you are aware of how natural science works?

As long as these hypotheses are tested and subsequently modified, I view it as progress. And I appreciate that people are doing the work - whether it's on wet lubes or hardening wax or something else.

Here's an old post of mine, in regards to science and Alps switches:

viewtopic.php?p=389329#p389329

My point is that the judging of condition, and of Alps switches in general, is totally subjective, and that in itself makes any results meaningless from an objective or "scientific" standpoint.

[Bjerrk]

My point is that the judging of condition, and of Alps switches in general, is totally subjective, and that in itself makes any results meaningless from an objective or "scientific" standpoint.

That just seems a bit (heh) binary ... Yes, there is person-to-person variability. Yes, it complicates comparisons. Going from there to "No meaningful experiments are possible" is quite a stretch.

I've tried a few of the different lubes suggested here, including the nyogel+OKS combination that NeK promotes and the "waxboil" paraffin method. Would my ratings of individual batches of switches agree 1-to-1 with someone else's? Probably not. But that hardly means that my statement that "both nyogel+OKS and waxboil work quite well, although the viscosity of the former does affect keyfeel" is invalid or useless.

Don't conflate "not perfect" with "useless and deserving of ridicule" is all I'm saying.

[Yasu0]

Its a good point about the subjectivity. If there were some standardized tests that more closely reflect real world use.. offset key press or angled key press, differing speeds of push, etc. That would help. But there aint none. I think I know how the results would play out but who really knows until a test rig is used.

[Bjerrk]

It is.
It is by no means a showstopper, though. Good results have already been obtained.

However, you are right about a standardized rig for switch testing being somewhat of a holy grail. As a physicist, I've been thinking about it a bit, and how "traditional" ways of measuring e.g. switch force curves are somewhat inadequate since they poorly reflect the kinematics.
Definitely worth giving a bit of thought ...

[jsheradin]

It is.
It is by no means a showstopper, though. Good results have already been obtained.

However, you are right about a standardized rig for switch testing being somewhat of a holy grail. As a physicist, I've been thinking about it a bit, and how "traditional" ways of measuring e.g. switch force curves are somewhat inadequate since they poorly reflect the kinematics.
Definitely worth giving a bit of thought ...

I'm not sure if there's an ISO standard that applies since they're all pay for access. I did find a number of research papers proposing measurement methods though. There's some pretty good considerations and test setups but none that are particularly easy to do at home. I didn't find anything that specifically looks for off-center presses, etc.

https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstrea ... sAllowed=y

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/d ... 1&type=pdf

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... s/download

A force measurement setup that can vary stem torque would be ideal.

[Polecat]

That just seems a bit (heh) binary ... Yes, there is person-to-person variability. Yes, it complicates comparisons. Going from there to "No meaningful experiments are possible" is quite a stretch.

I've tried a few of the different lubes suggested here, including the nyogel+OKS combination that NeK promotes and the "waxboil" paraffin method. Would my ratings of individual batches of switches agree 1-to-1 with someone else's? Probably not. But that hardly means that my statement that "both nyogel+OKS and waxboil work quite well, although the viscosity of the former does affect keyfeel" is invalid or useless.

Don't conflate "not perfect" with "useless and deserving of ridicule" is all I'm saying.

I don't disagree with what you're saying. But I've been here long enough now to see some of the same misconceptions repeated over and over, and it isn't getting any better. Just who or what are we supposed to believe? Do we need to check the posting history of everyone first? Perhaps political party or vaccination status is a better indicator of credibility? I'm not specifically downing anyone's opinion, but to be "science" an objective way of testing needs to be used unless we can come up with a good way to establish credibility. The wildly differing opinions we've seen recently remind me of the old saying, "When two experts have differing opinions, at least one of them must be wrong." And that brings me back to not wanting to believe anyone. My loss, I suppose.

[Bjerrk]

I'm not sure if there's an ISO standard that applies since they're all pay for access. I did find a number of research papers proposing measurement methods though. There's some pretty good considerations and test setups but none that are particularly easy to do at home. I didn't find anything that specifically looks for off-center presses, etc.

https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstrea ... sAllowed=y

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/d ... 1&type=pdf

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... s/download

A force measurement setup that can vary stem torque would be ideal.

Cheers! Those are very worthwhile reads - especially the 1999 paper. I'll read through them and perhaps start a "journal club" type topic.

I can already say that I appreciate these paragraphs, though:

Although prior research has investigated key layout (Kroemer, 1972) and keyboard shape
(Marklin et al, 1999; Simoneau, et al, 1999), studies of key tactile feel have been limited to static
properties only. The tactile feel is elusive because our kinesthetic sense is a composite of several mechanical factors,
both static and dynamic, that are not easily isolated nor characterized, and the kinesthetic sense
is a gestalt sensation. Our inability to isolate mechanical properties of keys may explain
why we prefer some keyboards but cannot articulate our reasons well.

This is essentially the point I was making about static force-displacement graphs being inadequate since the kinematic aspects are such an important part of keyfeel:

In part, this sensation or feeling can be quantified by determining the key's mechanical impedance,
i.e., (i) the stiffness, which relates the contact force to the displacement of the key,
(ii) the damping, which relates the contact force to the rate of displacing the key,
and (iii) the mass (inertia), which relates the contact force to the acceleration
of the key. These three properties can be found from graphs of force-displacement,
force-velocity, and force-acceleration characteristics, respectively.

[Muirium]

The tactile feel is elusive because our kinesthetic sense is a composite of several mechanical factors, both static and dynamic, that are not easily isolated nor characterized, and the kinesthetic sense is a gestalt sensation.

Words of wisdom.

[zrrion]

and here I thought the tactile feel was derived from the lateral motion of the encabulator

[hellothere]

I think you mean the alignment of the flux capacitator.

[NeK]

Not only you, I have several boards now that have at least a few swithces, or in case of my chicony, are fully waxmodded. The wax mod works wonderfully.

NeK, I'd ask you to show us how you did the wax mod so we can help you with it.

Thanks for the willingness to help, but I am certain that the "method" of application or boiling plays almost no role at all in the result. It is the type of candle wax that matters. Boiling, doesn't even clean the switches anywhere near enough. You have said that it is important that the switches be thoroughly cleaned first, which I agree. But, here is a video where I demonstrate how "boiling cleaning" turns out to be completely crap:

Boiling Cleaning:

As the video above demonstrates, the boiling does not even clean the switches from the old factory lube. It is left intact, as so does any other stubborn dirt. So one thing is clear: boiling is bad for cleaning. Even jezzuuz admitted that and stopped using it for cleaning, he just uses dish-soap (as what Chyrosran22 had always suggested). At least we got that out of the way, thank god!

Now, about the actual waxing: Well, I have also WAX BOILED the switches using 3-4 different waxes and none of them worked. It turned out, that the method of wax application doesn't play any significant role. If the candle is not of the right WAX type, it will just not work but if the candle is of the right type you can just place the wax on the stem just by rubbing it and it will work. Therefore the boiling application technique, in my experience and opinion, has no significant value. You can apply it in any way you want, just make sure not to put too much.

It was only when I tried one last candle, the one candle I had tried the first time months ago, that it actually did work! And guess what: it didn't matter how I apply that particular candle wax, it just worked either way. Either just rubbing the stem on it in the most crude way, or boiling them and getting the melted wax on the stem evenly and nice. Same thing.

So after 5 different paraffin wax candles, I had only one that worked. In my experience at least, this is a bad situation, to not knowing which candle to buy and use.

Also, as another proof that the type of candle is what matters, check out the following video where I specifically bought a "Paraffin Wax", that had "Paraffin Wax" written on its label, which turned out to be completely useless. This is yet another problem of this WAX "lubing", the are just too many different candles out there and there is no standard one to be sure that you get the right type to use. Some might be stiffer, some softer, most will have different kinds of HydroCarbon molecules, that will lead to totally different end results. This inconsistency is a big, big problem when you make the claim "waxing works". OK, which one? And are you sure you can replicate the same exact results with another candle? How do you verify what kind of HC is in the wax that you use? Everything is inconsistent!

Crap Paraffin Wax

And also, besides those two problems above, there is the problem of the wax, being wax, will come off after some use. Because plain wax does not adhere strong enough to the plastics as they rub together, it gets rubbed off.

How do you deal with that problem?

So to summarize:
"Wax Boiling" started as a (ahem) revolutionary method, that:

works very well, without any effort. Just Boil all the switches once to clean them "thoroughly", then put in the water some amount of ANY candle wax, let it boil, then take them out let them dry and voila, the switches are restored to a 8/10. Yoohoo!!! You don't have to use any special grease, you don't even have to smooth the plastics at all.

Don't listen to those who say otherwise, especially if they tell you to polish them, they don't know what they are doing. Boiling Wax yo, the best thing since sliced bread, everybody is doing it, with their eyes closed. Everybody is now happy dancing around. We did it!!!

<ciclejerk>ALPS lubing and restoring is now considered a solved issue. Blah blah blah</circlejerk>

Well, that whole nonsense turned out to be crap. Totally crap. Who would have imagine that? Right?

• The "boil cleaning" doesn't even clean the factory lube, FFS!!! So, yeah, let's change that song now. Let's pretend that we never said that!!!! Let's just go with dish-soap like Chyrosran22 had foever said is good cleaning method... yeah let's do that
• ANY candle wax, will not work. in fact, many will not work. Because they simple are not of the right molecular structure.
  Oh no, again that science stuff getting in the way of my wonderous lubing technique!! shit, I hate those science shits
  Oh, and forget about finding a consistent molecular structured candle, so that all of us will get the same result. No, because it doesn't work like that. Paraffin, by its very nature is consisted by random molecules, that are left over from the processing of OIL. Good luck with finding consistency there. So, that claim also got down the drain pretty fast.
• So what's left of the above miraculous method? well OK you have to clean them another way, and if you are lucky and find a good enough candle, it works!!!!! If it doesn't work, then "YoU aRe NoT DoInG iT RiGhT". -- More like "You are not holding it right" ala Steve Jobs. This is where this amazing method boiled down to (pun obviously intended)
• "Hey guys, has anyone like uhmmmm test the switches side-by-side with a really good condition OG switch, to verify that it is indeed 8/10? or 7/10? Anyone? Not even one little soul? Why?????????????????????????????????"

So now we have another issue: longevity. How long will it last?

[NeK]

...Also it happens that I was the one that actually started off this wax craze...

Well I was the one who half-jokingly suggested the original lube might be some generic variation of Johnson's Paste Wax, long before anyone had actually waxed their switches. Not that any of my original Alps keyboards need that, or any other snake oil treatment, thank you.

I am sure you did, you have been using ALPS boards for more than almost anyone in here.

[Lynx_Carpathica]

It was only when I tried one last candle, the one candle I had tried the first time months ago, that it actually did work! And guess what: it didn't matter how I apply that particular candle wax, it just worked either way. Either just rubbing the stem on it in the most crude way, or boiling them and getting the melted wax on the stem evenly and nice. Same thing.

Exactly what I found as well. Rubbing it worked flawelessly, allbeit with way more crap remaining after it. I only boul the water because it will remain hot longer, thus melting the wax for a longer period of time.

[Muirium]

So now we have another issue: longevity. How long will it last?

Hyperbolae aside, that's the bit I'm concerned about. Wax may well be an effective lube, but it doesn't exactly look like long-lasting does it? How long can it stand up? And how much bother is it to reapply regularly?

I've not bothered my arse trying any of this as yet. But! From what I've read, it looks to me like a good tear down and cleaning (for gnarly switches), and then occasional wax lubing is the best path, with what's been found so far. Sure, it'd be nice to have a longer lasting lube, but doesn't everyone want a 12-inch "candle?"

[Bjerrk]

an endless amount of nonsense

Your posts have really devolved into more or less pure hyperbola by now. Why do you bother?

Good arguments speak louder.

I try to remain pretty neutral about most of this - in fact, I find that both the wax boil and OKS/Nyogel combination work quite well, albeit with a somewhat different resulting keyfeel.

But all this wishy-washy talk of mysterious and unknowable "molecular structures" is just hyperbola. Even my small local supermarket has tea-lights which, according to their ingredient list, are "100% paraffin". It is not that hard.

Also, just a word of advice, if you want to invoke "science", be sure you're not talking out of your arse. It is so unseemly.

Don't get me wrong, you've done some stellar work on this - but then why not give that work the dignity it deserves?

[kshopper2084]

...Also it happens that I was the one that actually started off this wax craze...

Well I was the one who half-jokingly suggested the original lube might be some generic variation of Johnson's Paste Wax, long before anyone had actually waxed their switches. Not that any of my original Alps keyboards need that, or any other snake oil treatment, thank you.

I have an old tub of Johnson's Paste Wax that I use for waxing pinball playfields. The thing about it though is that I believe it contains some small amount of petroleum distillates as it has that strong odor when applied, and so you apply it smoothly as it soft and pliable and then let it sit for 15-20mins while the distillates evaporate, leaving you with a hard, dry coating of pure wax. Then you buff to a shine (essentially melts the wax and fills the small cracks in the surface, etc.).

So the first problem I see with using this for switch lube is that the petroleum isn't good for plastics, long term, Though in this case I think it would evaporate away quickly. The second problem is that I'm not sure how well the hardened wax would lube if there is no easy way to polish it on the switch? Perhaps a heat gun to melt it in place would work, if one was very careful?

I might have to try this on a few switches as well as using tea light candles (nobody ever suggested using anything else AFAIK) as well as a comparison. Seems like the tea light parrafin wax remains soft more or less permanently at room temperature, whereas the Johnson's, once applied and dried, is a very hard wax (which should result in higher wear longevity, assuming that it acts as a lubricant sufficiently at all).

[NeK]

an endless amount of nonsense

Blahblahblah

Good arguments speak louder.

But all this wishy-washy talk of mysterious and unknowable "molecular structures" is just hyperbola. Even my small local supermarket has tea-lights which, according to their ingredient list, are "100% paraffin". It is not that hard.
Blahblah

This is exactly the problem which I pointed out on my previous post. I bought a tea-light from my local supermarket which had a label "100% Paraffin Wax" and it turned out to be the worst of all. It's the second video in that post, watch it. it's only 10 seconds long ffs. If you already did watch it, then how could you even say what you just said? The inconsistency, the vagueness and the difficulty to find a good candle, is a real problem.

Please read/watch before you comment.

And finally, there is nothing mysterious about the "molecular structures", they are exactly what matters, what makes or breaks a lube.
Paraffin Wax varies wildly because it is not a specific type of chemicals, it is "what's leftover after the processing of oil", which can be anything. At least in my case I had to try 5 diffent paraffin wax candles to find a suitable one. Hyperbola? No. It's just how it is.

[Muirium]

paraffin ('parafin]
noun
(also paraffin wax) [mass noun] chiefly British
a flammable, whitish, translucent, waxy solid consisting of a mixture of saturated hydrocarbons, obtained by distillation from petroleum or shale and used in candles, cosmetics, polishes, and sealing and waterproofing compounds.

Paraffin is indeed just a catch-all term, not one pure substance. It’s real messy. Note the formula: CnH2n+2. n is a variable, covering a random mixture of fairly short molecules to quite long ones. Paraffin is more of a raw ingredient needing refined than a final, reliable product.

[Bjerrk]

That is certainly true, but no reason to make it sound like lubing with paraffin isn't worthwhile. And also no reason to make it sound like the molecular structure is pure voodoo - we're talking simple alkanes here. Compare e.g. OKS-470 (random example) which contains benzenesulfonic acid (in small amounts), titanium dioxide, lithium hydroxystearate (a lithium "soap") etc.

And, more to the point, absolutely nothing is achieved by hyperbola, name-calling and alienating others. Accept that lots of people are having good results with "waxboiling", and that it doesn't invalidate your search for something close to the original lube ...

I support the search for a better Alps lube (hell, I'm experimenting with something atm), but when grown men/women are shouting at each other over keyboard lube, I begin to lose the desire to contribute ...

[Muirium]

True. You won’t find me ranting like Nek (about lube at least…) but I agree with his point that some candles work, some don’t, and it’s not a simple matter of looking for paraffin on their label. Wax isn’t pure voodoo, but that’s surely in the mix!

[NeK]

That is certainly true, but no reason to make it sound like lubing with paraffin isn't worthwhile.

if you paid any attention, you would see that it is not me who gives a shit about the bikini waxing, if it os any good or not. I don't. I just want to find a proper way for restoring ALPS switches and I don't focus on the lubricant only.

It is those random clowns that fuck up every topic with their stupid bigotry. Posting the VaginaWaxing on every post like it is the one-true-way that rules them all.

I couldn't care less about them if they didn't interfere with every fucking post that I make. They think it is the best, I think otherwise, so do Chyrosran22 and many others who probably have more than 80 IQ and know a bit.

For fuckings sake, even polecat who I thought was a serious person, started trolling, and help derail the whole thing.

We are talking about people that have absolutely no idea of what they are doing, and they will never admit any mistake. Don't blame me for this whole mess. I am still trying to do my thing by ignoring them.

Now, if you ir anyone else likes to hear how great snakeoil is and how great this snakeoil technique works but in reality has a number of big problems which they totally ignore. It is fine with me. Just don't bother me about it, I don't want to hear it. It's a snakeoil shit, that may or may not work.

If you want to say something about me and the snakeoil VaginaWax, you first need to present a proof of how great it is. As long as you dont, or as the "proofs" are a laughable stock of crap, I won't get into the conversation at all and I will just add you or anyone else, into the group of mindless-clowns-that-circle-jerk-while-waxing-their-vagina.

[Bjerrk]

If you want to say something about me and the snakeoil VaginaWax, you first need to present a proof of how great it is. As long as you dont, or as the "proofs" are a laughable stock of crap, I won't get into the conversation at all and I will just add you or anyone else, into the group of mindless-clowns-that-circle-jerk-while-waxing-their-vagina.

You do appreciate how desperate you sound, don't you?

I've pointed out numerous times that I've in fact tried both approaches - wax and nyogel/oks - and found them both to be worthwhile. You're the one who seems incapable of having a nuanced discussion. Pull yourself together, man.

[NeK]

You do appreciate how desperate you sound, don't you?

I've pointed out numerous times that I've in fact tried both approaches - wax and nyogel/oks - and found them both to be worthwhile. You're the one who seems incapable of having a nuanced discussion. Pull yourself together, man.

I am just sick and tired of this shitfest.

Just tell me one thing that I said or did wrong and I will apologize the next instant. Just don't tell me that I just "hyperbole", that's just your opinion, it doesn't count. In fact, Murium, who has no reason to support me, just gave you a reason why I am right about the candles. At least recognize that and admit it.

One thing that I said and it was wrong, just one thing. And if you can't find any, then check out all the responses and the constant shitstorm of attacks that I have received, and let me know if you think that's OK.

[kshopper2084]

You do appreciate how desperate you sound, don't you?

I've pointed out numerous times that I've in fact tried both approaches - wax and nyogel/oks - and found them both to be worthwhile. You're the one who seems incapable of having a nuanced discussion. Pull yourself together, man.

I am just sick and tired of this shitfest.

Just tell me one thing that I said or did wrong and I will apologize the next instant. Just don't tell me that I just "hyperbole", that's just your opinion, it doesn't count. In fact, Murium, who has no reason to support me, just gave you a reason why I am right about the candles. At least recognize that and admit it.

One thing that I said and it was wrong, just one thing. And if you can't find any, then check out all the responses and the constant shitstorm of attacks that I have received, and let me know if you think that's OK.

Maybe you guys should take a break, eh?

NeK I appreciate all the work you've put in to testing things, creating videos, posting results, etc. But sometimes the manner in which you choose to communicate an idea is as important as what is being communicated.

FYI I went ahead and cleaned up a couple of my Salmon switches using both tea-light candle wax and a few others with Johnson's paste wax. For the tea light wax I ended up lighting the candle, then brushing on the melted wax with a small hobby brush to the edges of the clean sliders. Then once the wax hardened I removed obvious excess wax with a toothpick. For the Johnsons's I added the soft wax from the tin onto a similar brush, then brushed it onto the switch slider edges in a similar manner, then let it rest for 15mins to harden a bit. Then I polished the slider using a microfiber cloth on all sides which left the wax all but invisible on it.

The tea-light waxed switch feels good, nice even action from all edges of keycap, and weight is very similar to my stock switches which are generally pretty decent. The Johnson's waxed switches feel amazing. A bit lighter weight and very smooth.

I don't have any "perfect" NOS reference switches to compare anything to, so it might be that the Johnson's lose some of the expected magic of a perfect original switch, but they feel damn nice to me.

I will use this keyboard as my daily driver and report back if anything changes over time with either of the waxed switch types.

[NeK]

So now we have another issue: longevity. How long will it last?

Hyperbolae aside, that's the bit I'm concerned about. Wax may well be an effective lube, but it doesn't exactly look like long-lasting does it? How long can it stand up? And how much bother is it to reapply regularly?

I've not bothered my arse trying any of this as yet. But! From what I've read, it looks to me like a good tear down and cleaning (for gnarly switches), and then occasional wax lubing is the best path, with what's been found so far. Sure, it'd be nice to have a longer lasting lube, but doesn't everyone want a 12-inch "candle?"

Now on a serious note: I am very skeptical of the candle wax lasting more than 1-2 days. From my tests with the candle wax, I noticed that it deteriorates rapidly after only a few keystrokes. Maybe another candle would have a better paraffin wax that would last longer or maybe not. In fact, from what I do know, it takes a strongly adhering thickener to hold together the hydrocarbons (the paraffin wax) from getting scraped off on each keystroke.
This combination is sufficient enough for me to not bother at all with candle waxing and continue my search for the proper lube. That's all I am saying.

[NeK]

NeK I appreciate all the work you've put in to testing things, creating videos, posting results, etc. But sometimes the manner in which you choose to communicate an idea is as important as what is being communicated.

First of all, thank you. Now, you are right that I am behaving like a dick lately, but that's because I have taken a non-stop shitstorm of trolling about this. I try to ignore the haters and trolls but they do manage to get on my nerves because there's no one supporting me. I am very disappointed of how this community has come to this point and that bothers me.

[Lynx_Carpathica]

there's no one supporting me. I am very disappointed of how this community has come to this point and that bothers me.

Noone? I AM!
I only offered you help, and good words, did not say any profanity or anything brutal about you, except when you say dumb things. You have rights to express yourself here, as everybody else, but if you say something stupid, obviously someone is going to go against you to correct you.

I am defending wax mod, sicne it worked wonders on my early chicony that was basically 4/10, and now is a 8/10. I've been using it for almost half a month now, day to day, and I only put it away today to test my G80-1800 with gateron yellows. And it did not detiriorate. and it is definietly not palcebo, side by side with an original unwaxed switch, it's night and day, as I have showed you in my video afaicr.

Not to mention saying that dust does not affect alps switches... IT DOES! Cleaning my M0118 brought it from a 2/10 to 7/10. It was just so dirty and dusty, that it was binding, even tho it was only a littlebit dusty inside, and the sticking keys had sand in them. And the only one saying it is ONLY oxidation is you. However, there is NO doubt about that oxidation plays a major role in the switches deteriorating.

As I have told you many times before, WE NEED THE OG LUBE! Please, carry on, bc it will be the best thing since sliced bread, and if somebody, I support you with your experience. The tut I am looking for the most is the upstroke click fix in clicky switches.

[kshopper2084]

NeK I appreciate all the work you've put in to testing things, creating videos, posting results, etc. But sometimes the manner in which you choose to communicate an idea is as important as what is being communicated.

First of all, thank you. Now, you are right that I am behaving like a dick lately, but that's because I have taken a non-stop shitstorm of trolling about this. I try to ignore the haters and trolls but they do manage to get on my nerves because there's no one supporting me. I am very disappointed of how this community has come to this point and that bothers me.

Well I haven't really visited this forum since last spring, and I have to say I can't recall anything like the hostile exchanges I have read here today in the past. Has something changed with the way the forum is administered or moderated?

[Muirium]

No. Only threads on lube, for some reason. Thankfully. There’s just some kind of magic to that single topic.

As for moderation: DT’s always been light touch on off topic and hot heads. We only ever really moderated for spam control. But even that’s inactive since Webwit sold the site.