Kinda curious: What makes Alps so sensitive to dust?

[NeK]

there's no one supporting me. I am very disappointed of how this community has come to this point and that bothers me.

Noone? I AM!
I only offered you help, and good words, did not say any profanity or anything brutal about you, except when you say dumb things. You have rights to express yourself here, as everybody else, but if you say something stupid, obviously someone is going to go against you to correct you.

I am defending wax mod, sicne it worked wonders on my early chicony that was basically 4/10, and now is a 8/10. I've been using it for almost half a month now, day to day, and I only put it away today to test my G80-1800 with gateron yellows. And it did not detiriorate. and it is definietly not palcebo, side by side with an original unwaxed switch, it's night and day, as I have showed you in my video afaicr.

Not to mention saying that dust does not affect alps switches... IT DOES! Cleaning my M0118 brought it from a 2/10 to 7/10. It was just so dirty and dusty, that it was binding, even tho it was only a littlebit dusty inside, and the sticking keys had sand in them. And the only one saying it is ONLY oxidation is you. However, there is NO doubt about that oxidation plays a major role in the switches deteriorating.

As I have told you many times before, WE NEED THE OG LUBE! Please, carry on, bc it will be the best thing since sliced bread, and if somebody, I support you with your experience. The tut I am looking for the most is the upstroke click fix in clicky switches.

OK Let me be clear about dust: DUST indeed must be cleaned off. If the switches are dusty, they will feel like shit and bind like crazy. I never said that you should leave them with dust. That's crazy! What I did say is that the dust DOES NOT damage the switches, once you clean the dust off the switch do get A LOT better. That is a no-brainer. It is mandatory that the switches get cleaned very well.

What I said about oxidation, is that, once you cleaned them (which you MUST), then you have 2 problems: 1) if they are 1st gen SKCM factory lubed (Blue, Orange SKCM) then they need a lubricant which is what we are trying to find. and 2) The plastics will have some oxidation from old age, from the moisture and from the usage. That oxidation will be noticeable as scratchiness, even if you lubricate them. That remaining scratchiness is not the result of dust, it is the result of ageing, moisture, oxidation, usage, friction. That's what I am saying about dust.

So in simple words: I'm only talking about what to do AFTER you have cleaned them thoroughly. How to further improve their condition.

Having said that, thank you for supporting me.

[NeK]

Well I haven't really visited this forum since last spring, and I have to say I can't recall anything like the hostile exchanges I have read here today in the past. Has something changed with the way the forum is administered or moderated?

As Murium said, it's simple: there is absolutely no moderation at all. The trolls are having a blast now. Especially by trolling me in that lube thread which they managed to derail it to oblivion and back. We really need a moderator.

[Bjerrk]

NeK, I completely appreciate that lots of people are being dicks about the whole thing. No question. But most of them don't matter. Just ignore them, but quit pushing everybody who has a legitimate interest away! You're making it too easy for the trolls.

Let's talk about lube, not all this crap.

(Will give more full reply later, am on mobile right now. But I acknowledge that it's a challenge for the wax boil that the composition of candles is often somewhat ill-defined. That being said, it should also be acknowledged that the method has worked for a lot of people - including people who support the Quest for the OG Lube. Just read the last few posts )

[zrrion]

I think plenty of folks at this point have suggested purchasing wax pellets, which even if not properly defined could be purchased through the same supplier/manufacturer as a way to ensure consistency. Other folks have suggested purchasing some wax lubes meant for bicycle chains which would also have the benefit of being able to perform consistent tests with.

Personally if you want to entirely ditch regular candles for not actually clearly disclosing their makeup that honestly makes sense and bike lube would be a good place to start. I think further discussion of wax modding should really get moved to its own thread though as we're well past the intention of this thread at this point. IDK if that means moving the flame war to an existing wax thread or if someone wants to start another one after they've dome some more through keyboard science about it.

[hellothere]

Yah, I've recommended Finish Line Ceramic Wax. It's a bicycle chain wax. I mentioned elsewhere that there are studies that have been done that some bicycle waxes actually do provide a benefit. Note that's when used on a bicycle chain, though. However, for less than $10 a bottle and the ability to control how much and where you deposit the wax, I think it's something to try. It's worked for me.

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... dust DOES NOT damage the switches ...

I disagree. Easy to test: dump a bunch of graphite dust into your switch. Graphite is harder than plastic, thus it will scratch the switch plastic parts. I don't know about the metal parts, but I'd think those would get scratched, too. I also think that debris that gets into the switch plate sandwich would probably cause some issues.

No, I'm not just making up this use case. I worked in a place that used graphite in their manufacturing process. Even though I was in a room cut off from the manufacturing floor, we'd get graphite tracked in. I now live in a desert. We've got sand. You're going to get a nice layer of dust within a couple days.

I will agree that it'd be interesting to test to see how much dust gets into an Alps switch that has a keycap on it and what said dust does to the switch.

=================

Again, as far as Alps' original lube, that's been found. At this point, it's much more along the lines of which lube works better for used switches. I think. Maybe.

[hellothere]

After writing all that I've written above, I just received a linearized black Dell AT102W ISO edition KB, that I purchased through one of the folks here. It's the best black Alps keyboard I've used. It was lubed with Tribosys 3204.

[Lynx_Carpathica]

Again, as far as Alps' original lube, that's been found. At this point, it's much more along the lines of which lube works better for used switches. I think. Maybe.

Indeed. Along with not disregarding the other possibilites that has to be tested.

[kshopper2084]

It's only been a few hours, but I'm kind of loving the switches I lubed with Johnson's Paste Wax.

[NeK]

... dust DOES NOT damage the switches ...

I disagree. Easy to test: dump a bunch of graphite dust into your switch. Graphite is harder than plastic, thus it will scratch the switch plastic parts.

I can't disagree with that. Graphite for sure will kill any keyboard without airtight switches. Of course, I only talk about regular home dust, which is almost always softer than its plastics and is made of tiny particles. And even that I must say, that is just my opinion, maybe regular dust does some harm. I can't vouch for that, I just don't think so.

I would classify graphite dust as hard dirt. Hard dirt on switches will do serious damage. I think everyone will agree with this.

[hellothere]

I would classify graphite dust as hard dirt. Hard dirt on switches will do serious damage. I think everyone will agree with this.

We're probably on the same page, but the problem is that this really should be specified, before just saying dust doesn't do any damage. I did more than glance at a couple articles that said something to the affect of most dust is your dead skin cells and dust mites. Another said that it's what you track in from outside. Again, I live in a desert. There's such a thing as sandblasting. It's also a question of how much dust until the switch starts feeling not-good.

I've also worked in places that require full bodysuits because they don't want you to track in dust. I can definitely say that dust on a hard drive platter is almost definitely going to kill it. Dust on a plate of semiconductors will kill them. On the other hand, taking some canned air to the insides of your computer every now and then will make it work longer and better. I've had to do this to my laptops, too. Maybe as a more common example: if you're trying to put a screen protector on your phone, dust causes bubbles.

kshopper2084, if paste wax works for you, I'm really happy about it, because it's inexpensive. I'd want to find out what you're lubing -- top housing rails, slider side(s), etc. -- and how long it does work. I'd also be interested if you can use a conventional method to remove said wax, like just boiling the switch parts or soaking them in soap & warm water. Hey, I recently purchased a keyboard that somebody put shellac or something on and I can't get it off. (polecat, I promise I'll get the brake cleaner sometime!) I've also tried carnauba wax on keycaps because I wanted shiny. It does work quite well for that.

The Finish Line stuff I use works for 50-100 miles on a metal bike chain. I have no idea on plastics. All the keyboards I've put Finish Line on I've sold, except for one. I only used each for about a week. Two weeks on the green Alps. Smoooooth.

We've had some wax boil keyboards that have had the treatment for a couple months. I haven't read each post thoroughly to find out how long each person has used it. OP might want to post a poll and/or it might be an idea for a different thread.

One thing that has been bothering me is that various lubes are discussed for Cherry MX switches and clones on places like r/MK. I can understand some people's aversion to Reddit and/or topics that start with "Cherry" or one of the many clones, but if lots of folks say that lube X is the best thing since sliced bread, I think it'd be worth trying on Alps switches. I also mean this as no offense to Chyros, who did test some lubes in his Alps restoration videos. He was only able to test a few in the limited time he had.

[kshopper2084]

kshopper2084, if paste wax works for you, I'm really happy about it, because it's inexpensive. I'd want to find out what you're lubing -- top housing rails, slider side(s), etc. -- and how long it does work. I'd also be interested if you can use a conventional method to remove said wax, like just boiling the switch parts or soaking them in soap & warm water. Hey, I recently purchased a keyboard that somebody put shellac or something on and I can't get it off. (polecat, I promise I'll get the brake cleaner sometime!) I've also tried carnauba wax on keycaps because I wanted shiny. It does work quite well for that.

All I did was make sure everything was clean (my switches are pretty clean anyway), then I brushed a little Johnson's wax on the two "business" edges of the slider with a small art paint brush (a little goes a long way). Left to dry for 15-20 mins, then polished by rubbing with a microfiber cloth. I'm pretty certain that some amount of wax ends up on the broad sides of the slider as well in this process, but once it's shined up you can't really see the wax on there, it's just shiny.

Longevity I can't answer, obviously. I know it's easily removed with naptha on a wooden pinball playfield, but that's probably not something you want to use on your switch plastic.

The resulting action is far smoother and lighter than the paraffin switches I did as well, while retaining the tactility. Enough so that I plan to do the rest of the keyboard with the Johnson's technique when I get a chance. I'd love to see someone with more of an expert opinion try it and report back.

[hellothere]

Errata:

Please note that all this is in reference to complicated Alps. Note that I'm not an authority on Alps. I've just owned a bunch of Alps keyboards.

Polecat corrected me: Brake fluid, not cleaner. DOT3.

I've proven to myself, at least, that the Finish Line stuff works better on white Alps better than on blue Alps. We already know that the plastic used for the blue sliders is different from what was used for the white sliders.

For at least the blue and white Alps switches, the bottom housings have several differences throughout their production runs. That may mean that there may be more changes to top housings, other than just the superficial letter/number/Alps stamp.

For blue and orange Alps switches -- probably more, but these are what I get the most -- the switch plates and click plates changed both sizes and colors. Easiest difference is the switch from a grey switch plate to a white switch plate.

For at least blue, orange, and white Alps, (at least) two different springs were used. Blues and whites had copper colored and silver colored. Oranges had gold colored and silver colored.

I lube the slider rails in the top housing and the notch side of the slider. However, blues and oranges have two black "lines" on both sides of the very bottom of slider. That implies that Alps did lube both sides, but I have no idea or how far up. I have noted that if I lube both sides of the slider with Finish Line, I end up with a non-clicky/non-tactile switch.

I really would like to put a drop or two of Super Lube on the springs. I just find it interesting that I've not seen a reference to do or not to do this for any switch. And yes, I'm writing this so I can have people correct me. Thanks, Internet!

[Polecat]

Errata:

Polecat corrected me: Brake fluid, not cleaner. DOT3.

Catching up after a couple weeks off. Please note that brake fluid was a suggestion in my previous reply, rather than a sure thing. I used it back in the day to strip paint from small automotive parts, because it was cheaper and less nasty than commercial spray-type paint strippers, and because it cleaned up easily with plain water afterwards. Anyone wanting to use it on plastics needs to test first on an expendable part.

[Clickerclack]

Wow, didn't expect this topic to become so popular on Deskthority !
So much research goes into the best way to restore switches, it is pretty astounding to watch. I just began this thread just asking a small question and instead I get loads of text about which way is the best way to restore alps switches. It is maybe a good idea to open up a separate thread for discussing restoring Alps switches?

[Muirium]

You wandered into an already lively subject. Every thread about Alps switches becomes a bit of a stooshie, uh, for some reason or another…

[hellothere]

Wow, didn't expect this topic to become so popular on Deskthority !
So much research goes into the best way to restore switches, it is pretty astounding to watch. I just began this thread just asking a small question and instead I get loads of text about which way is the best way to restore alps switches. It is maybe a good idea to open up a separate thread for discussing restoring Alps switches?

Rules of the Internet. I think there should be another one that says something like, "The more posts a thread has, the more likely it is for it to go off topic."

Anyhow, answering the original question, "Its design." I think a few folks have mentioned that.

Relating to your original post, there's really no reason not to get an Alps keyboard. If you're not into wanting to clean and/or lube switches, I recommend that you look for the cleanest keyboard you can find. If you don't mind cleaning and/or lubing switches -- cleaning is easy; lubing can vary from easy to difficult depending on the method you use -- don't worry about it too much.

You can get OK keyboards with pine white Alps (clicky), cream or white damped Alps (tactile), or black Alps (can be linearized) for around $100. I can almost guarantee all of those will need some kind of work. You might want to post in the Marketplace what you're looking for and how much you want to spend.

One other Rules of Deskthority I've mentioned: "If a keyboard is listed in the wiki as having rubber domes as an option, the item you're looking at on ebay will have rubber domes." Or, "Always have the seller pull a cap so you can see the switch."

[Muirium]

I think there should be another one that says something like, "The more posts a thread has, the more likely it is for it to go off topic."

There is. Thankfully, we generally don’t go there at least.

[hellothere]

I think there should be another one that says something like, "The more posts a thread has, the more likely it is for it to go off topic."

There is. Thankfully, we generally don’t go there at least.

I don't think anybody here, even in the Alps Lube thread, has been Godwinned. I guess that's something ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Polecat]

I don't think anybody here, even in the Alps Lube thread, has been Godwinned. I guess that's something ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

...unless, of course, the mere mention of Godwin is considered Godwinning...

[Muirium]

Arright, arright, calm down, calm down!

Spoiler:

[hellothere]

I really want to add a bad pun, but I also know that some folks might consider it in bad taste. However, I want to acknowledge that there was a bad pun opportunity and I restrained myself.