Is there something about Cherry MX switches that make them more "clonable" than other designs?

[Muirium]

I saw people genuinely claiming 55g Topre was fatiguing to type on for long periods of time

Viagra cialis horse laxatives cheap(Topre 87U 55 g raffle)

I have both the 45 g and the 55 g version. The 45 g is just right for me, but the 55 g feels like fingering a shark's anus - it's tight and I might end up getting hurt.

—Julle

To be perfectly clear: 55g Topre is one very mellow shark.

Isn't MX just a "USB" for keyboard switches? The standard seems good enough. Plugging compatible caps or switches of your choice is up to you.

Nope. Because the Model F I’m typing on just won't fit into an MX shell. Same for Topre. Same for all the best Alps. Same for space invaders. Same for NEC blue ovals, beamsprings and Micro Switch. USB is plenty enough to squeeze any human-made serial stream of characters down, but MX is too constrictive. It's more like the Honda Civic of keyboards: fine enough in itself but you're not fitting a Tesla inside, let alone a truck. It's just one particularly popular beast among very many still sharing the road.

[del20nd]

For $500 I'd better not be hitting modifiers for the function keys.

I know, the very existence of people who prefer 60% is forcing you to fork out the silly readies. Forcing! It’s awful, make it stop, cleanse the earth of this wrongness.

Fwiw: I’ve never paid more than 250 for a keyboard. And my compacts range from marvellous to UnobtainIBM. China can go eat boogers.

I didn't say anything about people who prefer 60% layouts. Just that y'all should be paying less for less key switches!

If a 60% board costs $500, there had better be a darned good reason (perfect repro beam springs or something), and bigger boards should cost even more because they're presumably more expensive to make.

[apastuszak]

For $500 I'd better not be hitting modifiers for the function keys.

I know, the very existence of people who prefer 60% is forcing you to fork out the silly readies. Forcing! It’s awful, make it stop, cleanse the earth of this wrongness.

Fwiw: I’ve never paid more than 250 for a keyboard. And my compacts range from marvellous to UnobtainIBM. China can go eat boogers.

I didn't say anything about people who prefer 60% layouts. Just that y'all should be paying less for less key switches!

If a 60% board costs $500, there had better be a darned good reason (perfect repro beam springs or something), and bigger boards should cost even more because they're presumably more expensive to make.

This is how I feel. The modern Model F keyboards from modelfkeyboards.com are cheaper than some 60% layout mechanical keyboards with cherry MX style switches. And I've noticed that the more expensive a board gets, the more features it loses. Tons of $60-80 boards with a built in USB hub, wireless (Bluetooth and 2.4 GHz dongle), hot swappable switches, and can easily switch between Mac and Windows layouts. As you move up the food chain, you lose the USB port; you lose the wireless, and sometimes, you lose the hot swappable switches. You're paying more for less.

I tihnk Keychron is making some compelling offerings in their keyboards. They make a pretty solid board for the price. But they lack USB ports.

I think Matias also has potential. I like the fact that their keyboards include extra USB ports in them. I just wish their boards were hardware programmable. My Tactile Pro 4 sits there unused because of a lack of an insert key. The Fn key in it's place doesn't even produce a scan code, so I can't reprogram it to something else in software. I feel like Matias could sell more keyboards and reduce inventory costs of they engineered one keyboard that was switchable between Mac and Windows adn included a few extra keycaps.

[LambdaCore]

I didn't say anything about people who prefer 60% layouts. Just that y'all should be paying less for less key switches!

If a 60% board costs $500, there had better be a darned good reason (perfect repro beam springs or something), and bigger boards should cost even more because they're presumably more expensive to make.

This is how I feel. The modern Model F keyboards from modelfkeyboards.com are cheaper than some 60% layout mechanical keyboards with cherry MX style switches. And I've noticed that the more expensive a board gets, the more features it loses. Tons of $60-80 boards with a built in USB hub, wireless (Bluetooth and 2.4 GHz dongle), hot swappable switches, and can easily switch between Mac and Windows layouts. As you move up the food chain, you lose the USB port; you lose the wireless, and sometimes, you lose the hot swappable switches. You're paying more for less.

To be fair, I feel EVERYTHING in the modern keyboard world is a tad overpriced. Switches, boards, even the damn stabilizers sometimes cost an arm and a leg put together. That’s also why I think there’s that linear vs clicky/tactile divide, because in those regards especially you can get vastly better keyboards for a fraction of the cost. Even a brand new model f repro is going to run you less than some modern 60% or TKLs for the same functionality and far superior key feel.

I also feel there’s a lot of snake oil in keyboards, particularly in things like “bouncy keyfeel” or even gasket mounts I doubt really make a massive difference at the end of the day. Lubing should also be more or less irrelevant if manufacturers used slippery plastics on the slider and housing and went full contactless, and all of that SHOULD be done in the factory anyways at a fraction of the cost.

[Muirium]

Everything is overpriced when I’m still seeking it, and only cruelly underpriced when I've some to sell. Adam Smith's invisible hand flips the finger to us all.

[apastuszak]

I didn't say anything about people who prefer 60% layouts. Just that y'all should be paying less for less key switches!

If a 60% board costs $500, there had better be a darned good reason (perfect repro beam springs or something), and bigger boards should cost even more because they're presumably more expensive to make.

This is how I feel. The modern Model F keyboards from modelfkeyboards.com are cheaper than some 60% layout mechanical keyboards with cherry MX style switches. And I've noticed that the more expensive a board gets, the more features it loses. Tons of $60-80 boards with a built in USB hub, wireless (Bluetooth and 2.4 GHz dongle), hot swappable switches, and can easily switch between Mac and Windows layouts. As you move up the food chain, you lose the USB port; you lose the wireless, and sometimes, you lose the hot swappable switches. You're paying more for less.

To be fair, I feel EVERYTHING in the modern keyboard world is a tad overpriced. Switches, boards, even the damn stabilizers sometimes cost an arm and a leg put together. That’s also why I think there’s that linear vs clicky/tactile divide, because in those regards especially you can get vastly better keyboards for a fraction of the cost. Even a brand new model f repro is going to run you less than some modern 60% or TKLs for the same functionality and far superior key feel.

I also feel there’s a lot of snake oil in keyboards, particularly in things like “bouncy keyfeel” or even gasket mounts I doubt really make a massive difference at the end of the day. Lubing should also be more or less irrelevant if manufacturers used slippery plastics on the slider and housing and went full contactless, and all of that SHOULD be done in the factory anyways at a fraction of the cost.

This is all too true. I find it funny that I spent close to $110 on lubed Glorious Panda switches and I don't even use the keyboard I bought those switches for, because I really prefer my Apple Extended Keyboard II, that I spent $75.00 on.

What's REALLY overpriced is vintge Model Ms. Used to be that you would get a used Model M for around $50-$60 with bolt modded/screw modded ones costing $100-$150. I'm not sure how eBay prices are now. but during the pandemic, even Model Ms in HORRIBLE condition were selling for well over $100.

[paperWasp]

I also feel there’s a lot of snake oil in keyboards, particularly in things like “bouncy keyfeel” or even gasket mounts I doubt really make a massive difference at the end of the day. Lubing should also be more or less irrelevant if manufacturers used slippery plastics on the slider and housing and went full contactless, and all of that SHOULD be done in the factory anyways at a fraction of the cost.

Have you ever tried lubing switches with snake oil? That should make them very quiet, going just with occasional "sss" produced by their springs.

[apastuszak]

I also feel there’s a lot of snake oil in keyboards, particularly in things like “bouncy keyfeel” or even gasket mounts I doubt really make a massive difference at the end of the day. Lubing should also be more or less irrelevant if manufacturers used slippery plastics on the slider and housing and went full contactless, and all of that SHOULD be done in the factory anyways at a fraction of the cost.

Have you ever tried lubing switches with snake oil? That should make them very quiet, going just with occasional "sss" produced by their springs.

Snake oil works best on all key switches. It's used to manufacture switch film also.

It's funny. When I watch videos on people that lube switches and they do a "before and after" sound test, I almost never hear a difference. Modern keyboard enthusiasts have a lot in common with audiophiles.

Why did I spend money on lubed switches? Getting lubed switches was only $5.00 more a box than unlubed switches, and I was willing to spend $15.00 more to avoid FOMO.

It's kind of hard for me to justify any keyboard spending now, since I always end up back at either the Model M, the AEK II or a Matias keyboard. The biggest lure for me with a modern board is the programmabilty. And even that is only a lure because work won't let me install AutoHotKey. If I could use that, I wouldn't even need a programmable keyboard.

And I went switch chasing for a short period of time. Luckily I stopped myself after just trying 3 different types of switches.

I already have someone on reddit telling me if I like Glorious Pandas, I really need to try Boba U4T switches. So, I looked at them. And I saw they came in different spring weights, and switch colors and I was once again trapped by decision paralysis and said "I'm out!"

I think my perfect keyboard would be a Matias Tactile Pro with an Insert Key and QMK/VIAL on it. But that doesn't exist. I did suggest it to Matias, since they're doing keyboard redesigns now. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised in 2023.

[del20nd]

I didn't say anything about people who prefer 60% layouts. Just that y'all should be paying less for less key switches!

If a 60% board costs $500, there had better be a darned good reason (perfect repro beam springs or something), and bigger boards should cost even more because they're presumably more expensive to make.

This is how I feel. The modern Model F keyboards from modelfkeyboards.com are cheaper than some 60% layout mechanical keyboards with cherry MX style switches. And I've noticed that the more expensive a board gets, the more features it loses. Tons of $60-80 boards with a built in USB hub, wireless (Bluetooth and 2.4 GHz dongle), hot swappable switches, and can easily switch between Mac and Windows layouts. As you move up the food chain, you lose the USB port; you lose the wireless, and sometimes, you lose the hot swappable switches. You're paying more for less.

To be fair, I feel EVERYTHING in the modern keyboard world is a tad overpriced. Switches, boards, even the damn stabilizers sometimes cost an arm and a leg put together. That’s also why I think there’s that linear vs clicky/tactile divide, because in those regards especially you can get vastly better keyboards for a fraction of the cost. Even a brand new model f repro is going to run you less than some modern 60% or TKLs for the same functionality and far superior key feel.

I also feel there’s a lot of snake oil in keyboards, particularly in things like “bouncy keyfeel” or even gasket mounts I doubt really make a massive difference at the end of the day. Lubing should also be more or less irrelevant if manufacturers used slippery plastics on the slider and housing and went full contactless, and all of that SHOULD be done in the factory anyways at a fraction of the cost.

This is all too true. I find it funny that I spent close to $110 on lubed Glorious Panda switches and I don't even use the keyboard I bought those switches for, because I really prefer my Apple Extended Keyboard II, that I spent $75.00 on.

What's REALLY overpriced is vintge Model Ms. Used to be that you would get a used Model M for around $50-$60 with bolt modded/screw modded ones costing $100-$150. I'm not sure how eBay prices are now. but during the pandemic, even Model Ms in HORRIBLE condition were selling for well over $100.

I had to check it out to see the state of M's on eBay after reading this. Happily it looks like they've come back to earth a bit. I'm seeing prices range from $35 at the very low end (but a few examples at that price) up to $150 for boxed examples. (Oddly, the 122 key models seem to be fetching more than the standard boards on average, which is definitely an inversion from what I'm used to.) Specialty versions like the M13 and tenkeyless are expensive as ever... but that's always been the case.

It seems like the average sale for a decent, bog standard M is $70-80. That feels fair to me with inflation and whatnot. You won't find anything else with that kind of build quality near that price.

But maybe that's just the "I got mine" coming out in me, since I picked up my M's back when they were $10 yard sale fodder.

[apastuszak]

A LOT of the model Ms out there on eBay are terminal models. Not a bad thing, but for those you HAVE TO get a Soarer's Converter. I don't know of any RJ-45 to USB adapters that are not Soarer's converters.

These models also don't have working lock lights. I know a lot of people won't care, but I really want working lock lights.

As much as I love my 1986 Model M, I really prefer to use the New Model M, just for the added Windows keys. I use a USB switch box to hop between a Windows PC and a Mac, I really want to have an option key and a command key. I'm debating remapping caps lock to control and making scroll lock my caps lock.

But I am enjoying my AEK II way too much right now to want to switch back to the Model M. Though, how much better a Soarer's Converter is with Macros than QMK is kinda tempts me to do it.

The one thing I wish Unicomp made was a Model M122 with an ANSI layout and Windows keys. I'd snatch one of those up in a minute!

[JBert]

... picking up a square little MX tester and knowing instantly which one has your feel. (So long as you like scuffy, scuffy with a scratch, or scuffy with a chintzy click: the MX world’s your oyster.)

Talking about Cherry clones: has anybody been crazy enough to clone MX Clears? I like my switches Extra Scuffy, thank you very much.

[del20nd]

A LOT of the model Ms out there on eBay are terminal models. Not a bad thing, but for those you HAVE TO get a Soarer's Converter. I don't know of any RJ-45 to USB adapters that are not Soarer's converters.

These models also don't have working lock lights. I know a lot of people won't care, but I really want working lock lights.

As much as I love my 1986 Model M, I really prefer to use the New Model M, just for the added Windows keys. I use a USB switch box to hop between a Windows PC and a Mac, I really want to have an option key and a command key. I'm debating remapping caps lock to control and making scroll lock my caps lock.

But I am enjoying my AEK II way too much right now to want to switch back to the Model M. Though, how much better a Soarer's Converter is with Macros than QMK is kinda tempts me to do it.

The one thing I wish Unicomp made was a Model M122 with an ANSI layout and Windows keys. I'd snatch one of those up in a minute!

FWIW The Unicomp M122s do have a mapped Windows key in the left cluster. I also run my F122 in almost exactly the same layout that they have the M122 in and it's not too hard to get used to. I've actually come to prefer ISO enter and cross nav (if you get a converter you can map that center key to be a modifier and it becomes hella useful.)

I also find myself not using the M largely because of the missing win key. Too many useful shortcuts foresaken. If it ever gets off of backorder a space saving Unicomp M is a possibility.

[apastuszak]

I have a Unicomp Mini-M. I don't use it because I can't program it. I know that someone is working on a new controller card for it that can run QMK. Which sounds cool. But unless they include full VIAL support, I am not interested.

I tried to program a keyboard is pure QMK, and I was not a fan. I should not need to hack the c source code to add macros to my keyboard. I thought QMK Configurator might be the answer, but it doesn't support macros.

I really like the syntax of the Soarer's Converter .sc files. Very easy to program.

[Findecanor]

Talking about Cherry clones: has anybody been crazy enough to clone MX Clears?

I suppose you intended to be snarky, but I also don't know how ignorant you are: There are several options for "Ergo Clears" with lighter springs that lack the scratchiness and tight keycap mount of real Clear — but I've yet to find clones with the heavier springs.

The audiophile-counterpart among the keyboard community find more differences in feel with these stems though.

Edit: So I was tired...

[Muirium]

Crrrreak. There's upsetting to an impossible "audiophile" and then there's downright BAD with a capital SHUFF SHUFF SHUFF.

Are any of the Chinese MX manufacturers going after Ergo Clears? I mean are any of them targeting deep tactility without a click? I can't follow these things because their choice of product names make me roll my eyes so much I get nauseous. And I’m only half kidding.

[Findecanor]

Are any of the Chinese MX manufacturers going after Ergo Clears?

The official "Cherry MX Ergo Clears" is Cherry playing catch-up to the clone-manufacturers, many years late. Of course they don't mention the competition in their marketing.

I can't follow these things because their choice of product names make me roll my eyes so much I get nauseous.

Not to mention that several large enthusiast-stores are ordering the same switch from the clone manufacturers with different colours/transparency/lube and slapping on yet another cringe-inducing name for their switch.

[Muirium]

Indeed.

But you know what I mean by ergo clears: hand modified MX Clear + lighter spring hybrids. Is China making something to take on those? They're not my switch style at all, just curious to see if Shenzhen reckons there's a market for them.

Frankly, anything Cherry's doing now is irrelevant to discussion. Their choice!

[apastuszak]

I'm quite shocked that there are so many switch choices now. Is the mech market really big enough to support such a huge variety of switches?

And on top of all the different varieties out there, we have people making franken-switches by combining parts of two switches together.

I wonder if we're going to see a lot of switches get discontinued over the next few years. I can see varieties in tactile and click switches. But linear switches? How much can you really iterate and on switch that just slides up and down?

The one thing I would love to see is companies selling keyboards without switches, so I can buy my own.

My preferred brand of keyboard these days is Keychron. And they sell a fully assembled keyboard with their own switches or a "barebones" kit with just the PCB and case. The difference in price is about $20.00. But if you try to buy a set of just keycaps, they cost a lot more than $20.00. It's almost always cheaper to buy a full keyboard and swap the switches out than to buy a bare-bones keyboard and buy switches and keycaps.

Makes me wonder how cheap keycaps and switches really are and now much price gouging is going on in the custom mech market.

[Findecanor]

their own switches

In 95% of cases a switch design that already exist, just with the client's brand embossed on top.

[Muirium]

How long until they stamp DT on it? Officially certified. (No guarantee or attribute of any sort implied. Deskthority and derived logos are property of Chun-Li Wayne American Precision Speed Bowel Movement (Kowloon) Incorporated. All Right Reserved. Share and Like.

[Muirium]

Anyone else remember the Code Keyboard? There was some buzz about them in certain circles a few years ago thanks to Jeff Atwood. I remember hearing non-keyboard folks rave about their boutique “clear” switches, for all of five minutes. Word was that these were “mechs for non-gamers,” and you should totally get it in MX Clear.

The product page is still up and has this delightful spiel for said switch:

CHERRY MX CLEAR
Ultra-rare Cherry MX Clear mechanical keyswitches are the heart of the CODE keyboard. These switches are unique in the Cherry line because they combine solid actuation force with quiet, non-click activation, and a nice tactile bump on every keystroke. These hard to find switches deliver a superior typing experience over cheap rubber dome keyboards – without deafening your neighbors in the process.

Chiclets have since taken over the world.

[apastuszak]

Anyone else remember the Code Keyboard? There was some buzz about them in certain circles a few years ago thanks to Jeff Atwood. I remember hearing non-keyboard folks rave about their boutique “clear” switches, for all of five minutes. Word was that these were “mechs for non-gamers,” and you should totally get it in MX Clear.

The product page is still up and has this delightful spiel for said switch:

CHERRY MX CLEAR
Ultra-rare Cherry MX Clear mechanical keyswitches are the heart of the CODE keyboard. These switches are unique in the Cherry line because they combine solid actuation force with quiet, non-click activation, and a nice tactile bump on every keystroke. These hard to find switches deliver a superior typing experience over cheap rubber dome keyboards – without deafening your neighbors in the process.

Chiclets have since taken over the world.

I understand why rubber domes have taken over the world. They're cheap and they're OK. But I don't understand why chicklets have taken over from them. The only thing I can think of is that no one cares, or just doesn't know any better. They use the keyboard that's provided and never look at another one. I spent years typing on an Apple chicklet keyboard. It looked cool, but the typing experience sucked.

I don't expect everyone to try a mech and immediately want to run out and buy one. But I would expect anyone to try a chicklet keyboard and immediately want to use something else.

I bought a Logitech MX Keys. The keyboard is light years better than Apple's offering. But I'd rather type on a 2000s HP or Lenovo rubber dome that was included in the box, than type on a chicklet keyboard.

[del20nd]

I understand why rubber domes have taken over the world. They're cheap and they're OK. But I don't understand why chicklets have taken over from them. The only thing I can think of is that no one cares, or just doesn't know any better. They use the keyboard that's provided and never look at another one. I spent years typing on an Apple chicklet keyboard. It looked cool, but the typing experience sucked.

I don't expect everyone to try a mech and immediately want to run out and buy one. But I would expect anyone to try a chicklet keyboard and immediately want to use something else.

Meh. I'd take a better scissor switch chiclet board over a bad full travel rubber dome board. Specifically, some of the Thinkpad keyboards are pretty nice to type on.

Putting that aside, sometimes it literally doesn't matter to people. Everyone has different vices to invest their limited personal time and resources into; for some people, a keyboard that's good enough is good enough if it means they can afford to rebuild the carb on their classic era Mustang (or whatever.)

[LambdaCore]

That’s also why Cherry MX likely got cloned so frequently, they survived the mechanic purge and it’s what the general public is used to. For a 50 dollar mechanical keyboard, the comparison IS to shitty rubber domes and chiclet laptop keyboards, not buckling springs or SKCM white alps

[apastuszak]

I go through these phases where I want to try something new out. But in the end, I always end up back a the Model M for some reason. In this last phase I went through 3 different keyboard and tried out Gateron Pro brown and red switches. Then I tried Box Jades and Glorious Pandas. After that was over, I got an Apple Extended Keyboard II, which I have been happily using for weeks now.

And this morning, I really just want to go back to the Model M.

You just can't make me happy.

[LambdaCore]

I go through these phases where I want to try something new out. But in the end, I always end up back a the Model M for some reason. In this last phase I went through 3 different keyboard and tried out Gateron Pro brown and red switches. Then I tried Box Jades and Glorious Pandas. After that was over, I got an Apple Extended Keyboard II, which I have been happily using for weeks now.

And this morning, I really just want to go back to the Model M.

You just can't make me happy.

Ahhh, your one true love of the keyboard world! It's easy to forget that preference plays a massive part, there are even some I've met who prefer the membrane BS to the capacitive variant on the Model F. Unless sound or rollover issues bother you, I think you'd best stick to a bolt modded M as a daily driver, and switch out when you want variety!

[Muirium]

^ Correct on all counts. You’ve found your One, lucky you. And yet… that feeling you’re missing out on something remains. Welcome to life.

[hellothere]

You’ve found your One, lucky you. And yet… that feeling you’re missing out on something remains. Welcome to keyboard collecting.

FTFY.

[fohat]

And yet… that feeling you’re missing out on something remains.

One of my big problems is that even when I have found The One, eventually I stumble across some form of "upgrade" that tempts into a lust for The Even Better One.

[LambdaCore]

And yet… that feeling you’re missing out on something remains.

One of my big problems is that even when I have found The One, eventually I stumble across some form of "upgrade" that tempts into a lust for The Even Better One.

It'll follow you until you've got something as massive and expensive as a beamspring as your daily driver!