Cherry Corp Stabilizers, GIMME BACK MY CLACK! "Ok." WHAAAT?!

webwit · 08 Jun 2012, 17:08

Deskthority wiki is best. You can like access the pages and view the images.

ripster · 08 Jun 2012, 17:09

The ones that you can't access the attachment pictures are the best. They are more updated than the ones in the Wiki.

THAT is what put iMav over the edge I think.
http://geekhack.org/forumdisplay.php?85-ripster

I wonder if he will check in with Geekhack this weekend?

ripster · 08 Jun 2012, 17:09

Actually the GH Wikis are BETTER because NOBODY can change them! EVEN THE AUTHORS!
<need smiley face of smiley pounding desk>

webwit · 08 Jun 2012, 17:10

Traditionally he crashes the server over the weekend.

ripster · 08 Jun 2012, 17:11

Well, I think he is trying for a NEW HUMORLESS GH.

So no crashes.

He gets pissed off reading our comments at DT.

BTW do you screen PMs like he does? It's kinda weird.

webwit · 08 Jun 2012, 17:19

Screen PMs? That's not done, last month an admin on a big forum was banned after he was caught reading private messages (one of his posts contained info which was only in a pm). Anyway, phpBB doesn't support that. One could look into the database, I'm not sure if phpBB stores the messages encoded or plain text.

ripster · 08 Jun 2012, 17:33

Probably coincidence. He shut down two of my sockpuppets after I PM'd a couple of people yesterday. Next time I'm at a coffee shop I'll set up another.

GH has turned into an EXCELLENT place to buy novelty keys.

Should be Renamed to PimpMyGeekhack! Similar Vintage Forum Look.
http://pimpmykeyboard.com/

7bit · 08 Jun 2012, 17:35

Wait! You don't check pms for people talking behind your back?

Back on topic:

What is this thread about?

Never had problems with Cherry stabilisers.

Why repair things which are not broken?

ripster · 08 Jun 2012, 17:38

That IS good to know isn't it!

Anyway, GOOD Forum Moderation is more of an ART than a SKILL!

Like programming. Otherwise you get this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_instrument

And Cherry Stabilizers are SLUGGISH I think because of inertial effects.

But it's only a theory. I haven't bothered to weigh the parts but am sure it's lower for Filco wire stabilizers.

Anyway, Germans like it stiff (hey, it's FRIDAY loosen sie uppen).

off · 08 Jun 2012, 18:48

7bit wrote:Never had problems with Cherry stabilisers.
Why repair things which are not broken?

Ignorance is bliss...
It is broken, that's the point.
guess the mod is not for you.

ripster wrote:And Cherry Stabilizers are SLUGGISH I think because of inertial effects.

Which would apply to almost the same degree to the Costar stabilizers, yet they show none of those signs (afaik).
It's only slightly more plastic (insert vs insert), so if anything I'd bet on more rubbyrubby.

itlnstln wrote:Limmy and off apparently took writing lessons from Welly.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=executive+summary
In the spirit of the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_summary

http://lmnotgiveaf.nosite/?
Need an exec summary? Feel free to provide.
You could ofcourse have posted your take on what the mod is about, as an exec.sum., and ask if that is correct; what you have posted seems like a 'i don't care anyway but lemme pester you for better writing anyhow', well here you go, wall of text.

Limmy wrote:I still think there are more contributions to be made to the mod article, such as
1. detailed pics of the mod
2. before and after sound recording
Most mod articles are just not kind enough to explain everything until you sit down and try them yourself.
... after I tried them, I better understand what they do. And when I finally understand them, I feel lazy to explain it to others, just like people who had tried the same mod before me.
Maybe we need dumbed down version of the mod for everyone(including lazy ones) to understand. It is still worthwhile to educate the general public.

Ok, this mod came into being yesterday (ofcourse actually 8 years ago, but this page/my finding the solution); I posted the first post trusting that all those that have qualms with the cherry stabilizer would take the 15 minutes to improve their lives (1stworld), and those that have a spare stabilizer would only take 10seconds to see what-the-dealio.
Afterwards there should've come raining in results from all those with proper cameras/microphones (and credibility) hence case closed, mod born.
Still hoping for that.
Especially now I've posted explicit shots of what's to cut, this ain't rocket science, this ain't even kindergarten level.
At some point I'll probably take apart my board again, but not feeling that now; plus as is very clear, the shot quality is horribad in comparison.

I.E. yes the article is a non-entity a.t.m.; but I won't be able to provide those contents at this time, that much was clear before this post.

mod summary:
1. Find cherry (pcb mounted?) stabilizer;
2. Take out insert;
3. Find stanley knife;
4. Look at picture;
5. Look at picture again;
6. Look at other picture;
7. Look at another picture just so you're sure you won't cut your finger;
8. Cut the lowest part off of the insert, as marked on the pics;
9. ..
10. Profit.

Also, no, only very few Welly posts have come into my sights; and my way of typing/thinking/writing is not something that came into being as of late. Wall-o-text fanatic for life.

Limmy · 08 Jun 2012, 22:57

There are two things I would like to add to this mod post.
1. It takes desoldering ALL switches to do this mod for boards that are plate mounted. (at least that is what I heard)
2. In my experience the stabilizers wear over time, so that the level of mushiness tend to decline over time. My conjecture is that the plastic legs loses its elasticity(? ability to pop back to original position) over time.

------ you may stop reading if you mind details or are uncomfortable reading long texts (oh wait you may miss all the fun reading though. LOL) ------------
Related to point 1. For this reason, the mod is not an easy fix for Leopolds or any other board that is plate mounted.
Related to point 2. This could be reason why SOME people do not complain about Cherry stabilizers.

People in general are lazy and impatient. And in order to gain popularity or even a recognition, one has to cater to their needs I guess. Moreover the readers who are likely to benefit from this article may not even know how to disassemble stabilizer and may have some kind of fear from lack of knowledge.

It seems that you got an impression that I was asking you to do those things I mentioned. I was simply describing general characteristics of mod articles and behavior of people who write or use the information. Also, everything is crystal clear for some who have experienced it, but may not be as clear for some who have not experienced it. I don't know if this is correct analogy but most mod articles are like encyclopedia entry on sexual intercourse. It gives you basic knowledge stripping out all the details. Later you see porn or have sex for the first time to see how it is done. People expect porn like detail(pictures and videos), and are bored by dry texts describing it, especially when they have little to no knowledge of it. Again, I am not suggesting you produce a porn like detail, but if you do you would certainly benefit people who didn't care to look at how the stabilizers work or why it is designed as such.

I personally think ripster's articles have such detail. Easy to understand, don't need to think(or read) much, and all laid out for you. Like porn, they are pretty popular to general public.

Limmy · 08 Jun 2012, 23:15

ripster wrote: And Cherry Stabilizers are SLUGGISH I think because of inertial effects. But it's only a theory. I haven't bothered to weigh the parts but am sure it's lower for Filco wire stabilizers.

A little thought experiment (or thinking) would find flaw in your theory. Let me ask you this question. Are your space bar more mushy compared to your shift key? It would be of course tad slower to pop back up because of mass difference(space bar weighs 2 to 3 times more than shift keys), but the feel of mushiness has little to do with the mass of moving elements for that matter sluggishness. As a matter of fact, you feel less mushiness in space bar than shift keys because F=ma. The force applied when bottoming out is greater so the cushioning provided by the plastic legs do not change the feel as much.

ripster · 08 Jun 2012, 23:42

Nope. My spacebar is mushier than my other keys on the Cherry Corp keyboard I'm typing on right now.

Newton will not be denied. Reality>Thought Experiments.

After all, Einstein preferred thought experiments because the tools to measure were not there and I suspect because he was too busy cheating on his wife. And STILL CERN messed it up.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/ ... sfeed=true

Filco has light wires ALONE moving for a nice LIGHT feel!

Limmy · 09 Jun 2012, 09:33

ripster wrote:Nope. My spacebar is mushier than my other keys on the Cherry Corp keyboard I'm typing on right now.

Do you mean your space bar is mushier than other stabilized keys, say left shift key? That is in contrast to what I and others experienced. I see many complaints on backspace, enter, but I don't see much of complaints on space bars on boards that use Cherry stabilizers.

Your mass difference theory doesn't empirically hold. According to your theory, space bar should feel mushier compared to other x1 keys even in Filcos because space bar weighs about 6 times that of typical x1 key. It is not the mass difference that matters, at least in the range of a few grams.

As Off and I described, Cherry stabilizers are by design mushy. Shaving off the plastic legs that absorbs shock shouldn't affect the mushiness according to your theory(you wouldn't say shaving off 0.1g of plastic is going to make that difference, would you?). But the mod eliminate the mushiness, according to Off and many other who did the mod.

Observe how it works, do some experiments and come back.

off · 09 Jun 2012, 16:25

ripster wrote:Filco has light wires ALONE moving for a nice LIGHT feel!

Nope. Together. Cap+inserts+wire.
And Cherry? Cap+inserts+wire. Just bigger inserts, with more rubbyrubby and bumpers.

But you can shave those bumpers clean off!

Now for some more pics (took another hour, for this quality

):

Spoiler:

ripster · 09 Jun 2012, 16:31

I meant the parts in motion. The stabilizers pieces on both plate and key are fixed and the key stabilizer white piece is probably insignificant mass in relation to the key.

Moment of Inertia. Chose a British Accent video for you.

off · 09 Jun 2012, 16:32

Spoiler:

So now, despite the blurriness and lack of focus and contrast, I take it this should finally be crystal to everyone?

ripster · 09 Jun 2012, 16:33

Well, to be honest I see tape on the bottom of one and a bit unclear about EXACTLY what is shaven off.

off · 09 Jun 2012, 16:34

ripster wrote:I meant the parts in motion.

Yes the parts in motion. The parts trying to increase their motion more precisely. What else could be effected by inertia.
So you're gonna tell me that the cap/inserts don't move on your board?

ripster · 09 Jun 2012, 16:37

I'm saying the important part of the inertia equation is the heavier mass of the wire and that plastic slider piece whacking up and down like a piston in heat. A simple thin wire has none of that.

But then, it's only a theory.

And you were right about the SPOS keyboard. I just pulled some keys and only the spacebar has stabilizers so I don't have much to test.

And I raped my last Cherry Corp keyboard for it's Doubleshots and dumped the carcass into a dumpster so I don't have a good way of testing all this.

off · 09 Jun 2012, 17:02

ripster wrote:I'm saying the important part of the inertia equation is the heavier mass of the wire and that plastic slider piece whacking up and down like a piston in heat. A simple thin wire has none of that.

But then, it's only a theory.

One that doesn't seem to make any sense.
Babysteps:
Filcostar stabilizer moving parts: wire, insert x2, keycap.
Cherry corp stabilizer moving parts: wire, insert x2, keycap.
Now I do agree that the insert seems to be bigger on the cherry side, but the rest is equal.
And seeing how the insert has only very little significance in this equasion...
Spell it out if you really feel you do have a point there.

Well, to be honest I see tape on the bottom of one and a bit unclear about EXACTLY what is shaven off.

Thanks for showing that you didn't even read the thread in the first place, despite being the second most frequent poster in it.
Tape is mentioned, more than once. The what gets shaven off part... sorry, I don't think I can make it any more clear.

On your Ricer (and then I'm really out of here, will be back when either other people justifiedly ask for clarification, or someone posts back with their results): Clearly it does have stabs on the numpad, which could give you a faint indication of the bliss that this mod will bring; smack/whack one of those (repeatedly and forcibly) and feel the mushy landing without satisfying clack/thock.

ripster · 09 Jun 2012, 17:15

Well, maybe we are talking about two different things:
- Bottoming out feel/sound (the THWACK) - that is what this mod addresses
- Sluggishness overall next to a Filco Stabilizer

Hmm... maybe it's not inertia and is friction effects.
<has spacebar off and wiggling parts>

Next I'm gonna test some lube, what Elitekeyboards recommends.

off · 09 Jun 2012, 17:19

Limmy wrote:Again, I am not suggesting you produce a porn like detail, but if you do you would certainly benefit people who didn't care to look at how the stabilizers work or why it is designed as such.

I personally think ripster's articles have such detail. Easy to understand, don't need to think(or read) much, and all laid out for you. Like porn, they are pretty popular to general public.

I like porn, but definitely prefer sex. This thread/moddiscussion is more like sex.
Maybe a porn post will arise for the quick fix.

And rip; the sluggishness during the way down and up coming from friction, aka RUBBYRUBBY, already mentioned that twice on this page in direct response to your inertia quest.

ripster · 09 Jun 2012, 17:54

Well, maybe a BIT of inertia too! But nothing can really be done about that so it's a good PhD thesis, not a good Engineering thesis.

And if I post anything Limmy will just say KBDmania did it first anyway!

Limmy · 10 Jun 2012, 03:28

ripster wrote:Well, maybe a BIT of inertia too! But nothing can really be done about that so it's a good PhD thesis, not a good Engineering thesis.

And if I post anything Limmy will just say KBDmania did it first anyway!

A PhD thesis??? It is mere application of well known basic theory, which would be suitable for questions in high school (maybe middle school?) physics quiz.

And of course there were engineering solutions to mitigate the issue. See extra springs in Topre space bar and some Cherry space bars with stronger springs(different switch type). And finally, see the topic of this thread. Due to the additional inertia of a large key, the Cherry stabilizer is designed/engineered to absorb the additional shock!

You have to admit KBDMania has longer history, many of the things you make fun of are actually tested by many people hence gained popularity(there were much more that may have made less sense and they faded away). It is just that you don't understand the content because it is not in your language. Oh wait, it seems you don't even understand or read what is written in English. (sorry if it was my bad English)

ripster · 10 Jun 2012, 03:38

Maybe, KBDmania is so slow and I don't have the patience for Hanguling with the Homies since foreigners are Comcast throttled to sluggishness.

Know any good Korean Proxy servers I can use?

Limmy · 10 Jun 2012, 03:44

ripster wrote:Know any good Korean Proxy servers I can use?

I am in the US and I am experiencing the slow connection problem too. It has gotten a little better past few months though. I heard amount of foreign traffic was serious enough to limit the bandwidth, so I cannot complain that much.

I do not know of any proxy, I wish I knew one.

off · 10 Jun 2012, 16:51

ANYONE GOTTEN TO THE CUTTING PART YET?

Limmy, would you be so kind as to kick some of those koreans that did over here (preferably ones that know english well enough to try and give their opinions in english

)?

Limmy · 11 Jun 2012, 06:37

off wrote: Limmy, would you be so kind as to kick some of those koreans that did over here (preferably ones that know english well enough to try and give their opinions in english )?

I am not sure what you are looking for from other users. Are you looking for confirmation of the effects of the mod?

Here are two KMAC assembly guidelines for newbies.
http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/3706757 by Fanny
http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/3717218 by HoneyLove
If you look at the guides, they recommend cutting the plastic part and putting on some fabric tape on PCB. It is more or less standard procedure for people who are into custom boards. Since it is a standard procedure, there is not much content describing the effects of the mod.

The method the above guides use is minor tweaks of following two old mod posts.
http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/116137 by digipen
http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/119536 by DdogakDdogak

Other popular mods are slider lubrication, LED sanding, and sticker mods. As I noted earlier in a previous post describing the behavior of members who are into mod, they hardly post about effects of mod. (I am kind of an odd ball trying to write analyzing post on mods.) The way I see it is that they try them out themselves and if they like it they recommend them.

off · 11 Jun 2012, 13:22

Limmy wrote:they recommend cutting the plastic part and putting on some fabric tape on PCB. It is more or less standard procedure for people who are into custom boards. Since it is a standard procedure

Well shit.

It seems I'm bringing absolutely nothing new to the table then, besides english and hopefully recognition of this feature in these here western parts..
Standard procedure... Now I'm starting to wonder what more is being kept from us

Oh, and "I am not sure what you are looking for from other users. Are you looking for confirmation of the effects of the mod?" yes! Although preferably from the high-profile users of DT/GH, seeing how they tend to influence the opinions of quite a few others

I'll have a look at those guides (thanks for linking them in here), once they are loaded..
*edit, 40 minutes later... still not finished

http://noma.co.kr/attach/images/37992/7 ... 88678a.jpg
that pic, what does it point out, just the correct way the insert fits in the stabiliser, or is there a mod hidden in there?

And I realised I might be the first to chop of the full leg instead of just the mini-feet; which theoretically might reduce friction, yet theoretically might increase binding. I actually did it just because the result felt better than just the footchop.