Custom 5X15-key alpha sections. Provide your layout ideas.

[bpiphany]

I am very interested in hearing about other people's ideas on how they would want to rearrange the "standard" alpha numeric section consisting of five rows, fifteen single unit keys wide, that most keyboard come with.

This is with the intention to try to include as many of them as possible for the next "Custom Teensy Keyboard". It will probably not use the actual Teensy, but instead have the controller components mounted directly on the main PCB. This is since it is hard to fit the Teensy anywhere. The PCB will be certain to fit the full size Filco as well as the tenkeyless Filco. I want to make it possible to cut away the function row as well as the keypad and/or navigation section. Different combinations are going to require custom cases of course. This is not something I myself will be involved designing. Although I think the PCB should be made as flexible as possible anyhow. In either case all this means the controller needs to be located somewhere under the alpha section, to not be cut away when reducing the size. And that in turn means no big bulky Teensy, but instead SMD controller parts directly on the back.

The original idea was to include compatibility with the Poker case as well. The mounting holes on the Poker, in combination with other layout features, has proven to be hard to work around though. And even regarding the price drop that having a truly universal PCB in larger order quantities, it probably makes sense to do a separate PCB design for the ultra compact keyboards out there. Prices increase with PCB size as well.

The PLU may have the exact same mounting hole locations and distances between different sections. This has not been confirmed as far as I know. Leopold have different mounting hole locations, but may again have the same intra-section-distances as the Filco. Nothing confirmed there though. I may be able to include compatibility with these and other cases, but that require good measurements of them or someone to try the current Phantom (of a original Filco) PCB in one of them to confirm the distances between the sections are all the same.

[bpiphany]

Ubuntu (probably other Linuxes as well) have a keyboard layout package called 'xkb'. I don't know all the bits and parts of it, it has always seemed pretty messy to me (keyboard layout handling in general seems to be on any system). I have learned to use it for two tasks though. One is to define custom keyboard "language" mappings, deciding which characters correspond to different keys. The other is to render keyboard layout images. This is what is interesting here. I wrote a layout file that allows to combine different choices for different sections of the keyboard. And hopefully someone other than me will know how to use it as well. If not I can help doing the rendering from your instructions =)

Since Deskthority doesn't support uploading anything else than images (not complaining), I put the file on github.

I am going to start off with a couple of my own ideas to get things started. They will most surely all be supported (since I am almighty in this regard...).

One of the more interesting subjects at hand is the spacebar row. The possibilities are endless.. and I really need input on this. There will be 11 columns available for that row (13 if dropping the 7bit extra two F-keys). Combining every theoretically possible layout will not work as well for several reasons. I think it will be possible to make the layout options very broad though. So fire away..

There are 15 columns available for the number row, 14 on the tab row, 14 on the home row, and 15 again on the shift row.

Another request is straight column layouts. I've not come up with any idea that I am happy with myself. Please observe that there are no 3 unit home row keys available from Signature Plastics. Looks like I was wrong on that, here is their DCS family. (And again I lost myself, a 2.50 unit key is what would have been useful on a straight column layout I think..) I think it will be a good idea to stick with keys they do have.

To obtain images the exact same size as mine, I use the 'eps' output format from 'xkbprint', open them in GIMP at resolution 200, trim away the white borders, and save as 'png'.

[bpiphany]

There is the standard ANSI layout of course.

Standard ANSI 104 key layout

ansi.png (12.01 KiB) Viewed 6781 times

My own little pet project symmetrical layout.

The symmetrical stagger layout

symmetric.png (5.23 KiB) Viewed 6781 times

Combining rows from the standard stagger and the symmetrical stagger you end up with the same stagger as is seen on the Japanese version of the HHKB.

"Realforce JP" constant offset stagger

realforce.png (12.02 KiB) Viewed 6781 times

Using the same "Japanese" layout adding arrow keys.

HHKB layout with arrows

arrows.png (7.13 KiB) Viewed 6781 times

[dirge]

Thanks for replying to my message mate, glad this is on your radar

I love the Japanese layout, if an ISO enter and small left shift + <\> would be possible. That would be perfect better than poker actually.

[bpiphany]

Thanks for replying to my message mate, glad this is on your radar :)

I love the Japanese layout, if an ISO enter and small left shift + <\> would be possible. That would be perfect :) better than poker actually.

ISO enter will of course be available. And any combination of non-overlapping options should work together.
Split backspace, split shift keys, split numpad keys, and so on. All rows are independent entities, it is possible to combine them in any way desired. When keys are able to split there are two or more switch matrix location there to use for the extra keys.

The trick then is to get the exact mounting plate desired. That requires a more or less exact layout choice to be made. The PCB should be general enough to support any layout.

[IvanIvanovich]

I would just like a normal ansi Poker sized that I can make with winkeyless, and for the love pcb mount so no plate has to be dealt with at all. I hate plates.

[bpiphany]

I would just like a normal ansi Poker sized that I can make with winkeyless, and for the love pcb mount so no plate has to be dealt with at all. I hate plates.

If there is a separate PCB for the super small form factor, that one should probably have PCB mount stabilizer holes. On the full size PCB all the holes make a huge mess, and impact on the free space to route traces. A larger impact than what at least my intuition would have told me. I am currently doing the design without the holes..

[7bit]

This is not radical enough!

Here comes my latest 5x15 design:

[dirge]

You really dislike stabilizers and capslock

[Djuzuh]

7bit is always too radical, to the point where it doesn't look awesome anymore, just scarry xD.

I have never used a space bar this little, is it really useable?

[bpiphany]

Hmm, the 7bit hex-stagger =D That is 15 keys on the home row though. You always come up with ideas not quite compatible with what I had planned =P but I will look into it. And on a separate SFF board there would be enough I/O-pins to cover 15 columns on all rows of course.

I have a one unit wide key to the right of the right shift on some of my boards. It almost drives me crazy every time. I'm so used to shift sitting all the way out... I also like it to sit all the way in under my pinky. I could probably get used to a split shift with an up arrow in the middle though, but that is just wrong... =)

[dorkvader]

I would nominate 7bit's as the layout suggestion of the decade, but unfortunately, it still has flaws.
Firstly (and this is not really a flaw) the spacebar should be centered between B and M. This i exactly where I put my right thumb when using it, and moving it would certainly be just awful. It's easily possible to have a useful spacebar that short, especially if it's in the right place. Ideally, there'd be a second one for the other thumb, but that's just preference.

Secondly, there's no reason for the up arrow to be on the wrong side of the shift. It' just makes it harder to hit. I don't know if you ISO type are used to reaching over extra-far or something, but as a habitual ANSI'er, I like my right shift to end where it does. I only hope that I'll start so use it properly.

Also, I don't know about the extra "hyper" modifier. I'd prefer a "fn" button for another (navigational, most likely) layer. I know I'd use "home" and "end" a lot more than "front" (unless "front" is "home").

Dedicated cut and paste keys are great. That's almost the first thing I added to the Cherry G80-8113 I just got (thanks Reptile!).

Were I good with a graphics program, I'd fix the layout for him, but alas, I have none installed. It's a step in the right direction, what with the split spacebar, and the numerous thumb keys it provides, though. That would make one heck of a decent "small keyboard"

[bpiphany]

The arrow placement would impact both of the lower rows of course, but changing the space bar row would be independent of the rest other than that. Coming up with custom space bar rows is one of the main thing I want everyone to do, since there are so many possibilities.

Moving the arrow keys all the way out to the right in 7bit's layout, and using the spacebar row of my arrow layout above could perhaps be an interesting option. 7bit could do the non-arrow part of his spacebar row with 1.50 unit keys only. It is all about cramming as many options as possible in there =)

In an ideal world there would be possible switch locations every 1/8 of a unit key. That would make any thinkable layout option using standard wide keys possible. It is possible to have a couple of switch locations on 1/8 unit distance, but not all the way. The PCB needs to hold together in some way...

Here are some pretty standard spacebar rows that are out there on commercial boards or that I (or 7bit) thought up myself.

Spacebar row layout ideas

spacerows.png (14.29 KiB) Viewed 6677 times

Overlapping switch locations..

Overlapping switch locations - or PrinsValium has lost it completely...

overlapping.png (31.33 KiB) Viewed 6677 times

[Findecanor]

I don't know about others, but I tend to press the space bar with my right thumb in the area below N and M - sometimes more under 'N' and sometimes more under 'M'.
I am also very much used to the right Alt (Alt Gr for me!) being below , (comma). I think that I could live with a one-unit key in-between right Alt and the space bar, but that's it for extra keys on the right. I would vote for space bar options 1, 3, 4 and 5 above but not for any other.

BTW, I am planning to use option 3 on my Phantom, with a modified plate. Thanks again to PrinsValium for having added the switch positions to the PCB!

[bpiphany]

All the space bar rows in that picture are pretty much for sure going to be available. Number 5 with the JAP key is as I understand it the Filco Japanese standard and will be a top priority to include. 7bit not so much because I am particularly fond of it as because of... ehmm, "historical" reasons... But I want MOAR!!1 more alternatives you would like to be included.

[7bit]

Those SMD controller parts: Are they programmable with free software, like the Teensy?

[Icarium]

Of course they are.

[bpiphany]

I will most probably be using a ATmega32u2 chip, or maybe the ATmega32u4 (the exact same as the Teensy). They ship from Atmel with their proprietary bootloader, there are freeware tools on the computer side to talk to the bootloader though. And there are open source bootloaders available from the LUFA package. I have tried them on both chips and they work fine. The only real difference is that they both take 4kB compared to the 0.5kB for the HalfKay bootloader the Teensy comes with. Changing the bootloader requires a programmer though, and I will probably do the design without an external clock source for the chip. This means re-programming some "fuses" on the chip as well as the bootloader. So I am probably going to be doing some reprogramming of a bunch of micro controllers if it end up that way =)

[sad_destroyer]

This is my current idea for keyboard layout:

I took out caps lock and scroll lock, home/end are fn's of pg up/down, arrow keys are in a row, no keys are over 2", fn keys are on the top row of #'s, numpad activated w/ numlock on keys 7,8,9 and below them, and I'm keeping some duplicate modifiers so others can still use it.
I was looking for input in my post here:
http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/que ... t3255.html

But this works too! If you end up considering my layout for production, I would be so happy

Also, my design as it is, is 5x15.5. Should I look at trimming it for the purpose of this thread?

[7bit]

This is a little bit too wide (15.5 units)!

[sad_destroyer]

Just to clarify, that pic is my entire layout (nothing to the right or top). My bottom row idea can be simply this:

Use the gridlines for reference...my left and right thumbs would rest on shift and space, respectively.
The row is based on several things: no right ctrl because I never use it. Shift by left thumb because the pinky is tired of it. Win keys under E and L, for shortcuts Explorer and Lock. One alt because I barely use that. Fn key in case there's a need for it. Backspace down below so pinky doesn't have to reach all the time, right thumb can either space or backspace.

[Icarium]

PrinsValium: Here's a challenge. Make it splitable!

[7bit]

PrinsValium: Here's a challenge. Make it splitable!

Even better: We just need 1x15 PCB stripes, so splitting is easy!

[bpiphany]

I don't see any good chance that 15.5 columns is going to happen. Adding a 16th column to the full size trimmable PCB would be easier. Not on the space bar row though, there is a huge mounting hole there... But that is only HHKBresque.

And with that said, it is pretty much just a regular layout with an extra column... Shift keys splittable in all conceivable combinations are already part of the plan. As well as splittable backspace, spacebars, and numpad keys.

Dox is doing the splittable thing. I'm not sure if he's listening or not to my very well aimed recommendations on making it flippable as well. I have some loose ideas on making mine splittable actually. Cutting off parts for a tenkeyless or SFF would of course leave you with PCB leftovers for a numpad if there is a second controller location there =D

[damorgue]

Two of my thoughts:
I always wanted a condensed full sized. There are ones like Pure, Race, Poker and Choc Mini that have squeezed as many keys as possible in. I would like that with a full sized. Why break the pattern by having a distance between the arrow cluster and the alphapart to the left and the numpad to the right? Why not just have them right against eachother to create a more uniform look?

If you make it splittable, i suggest an IDE/PATA cable. That way one could also use such a cable to place the numpad on the other side of the board.

[mintberryminuscrunch]

Cutting off parts for a tenkeyless or SFF would of course leave you with PCB leftovers for a numpad if there is a second controller location there =D

I like that idea

[bpiphany]

The numpad would be completely standalone, using its own controller.

The full size Filco is half a key unit wider than it would be if all the sections were stacked against each other. And about half a unit higher as well. I really don't think that is something to care about. I like that they are separate units. The Filco cases have a very narrow frame as well.

Splitting or changing the inter-section-distances is not really compatible with the goal of the project, cramming an optional 16th column in there is a borderline case..

[sad_destroyer]

Well, is there any chance I could get my hands on the current PCB design, edit it, and order it for myself? I know it wouldn't fit in the Filco cases you're using, but I could figure something out...maybe...
@damorgue, that's exactly what I'm looking for. Are you interested in my design at all? Or is there anything you would change about it?
@7bit, in your 5x15 design, where will you get Row 1 keycaps that are 1.5"? That size/row combo doesn't exist in a normal keyboard layout, and WASD doesn't carry them. That's something I took into account, note in my top row I have 1.5" for my backspace key, but I have to downsize to 1" because there is no 1.5" Row 4 keycap.

[7bit]

In my layout consists only of 1 and 1.5 units keys. It is correct that there are no such keys from Cherry (I mean the text on the keys, not the sizes), but I'm running a group buy (Round 4) and also have key caps to fit this layout (with little exceptions) from the previous Round 3 group buy.

When I look at your layout, I don't understand the gaps and why you want it to be so messy!

Here you can find which sizes are possible and which are not:
http://www.solutionsinplastic.com/pdfs/DCSFamily.pdf

The following sizes exist in every row-profile (1 to 4):
1, 1.25, 1.5, 1.75 and 2.

2.25 and 3 units are available in rows 3 and 4, 2.5 and 2.75 in row 4.

[damorgue]

The numpad would be completely standalone, using its own controller.

The full size Filco is half a key unit wider than it would be if all the sections were stacked against each other. And about half a unit higher as well. I really don't think that is something to care about. I like that they are separate units. The Filco cases have a very narrow frame as well.

Splitting or changing the inter-section-distances is not really compatible with the goal of the project, cramming an optional 16th column in there is a borderline case..

It was more to create a uniform look than to save space. Numpad on the left would be nice if it was attached and not separate, again to keep with the uniform look. I would like there to be no space below the Esc and F-row too, and stack them against the row below.

I get that it will be hard to make a case and out of this projects proportions, just wanted to see if there were others interested in the same thing.