Purchased a Realforce 87U. It's ok, but rather underwhelming

[Trev]

Hey guys

So... as the title states, why is this keyboard so hyped up?

I've been typing on mine for a week. It not a "bad" experience so far, but a far stretch from being the amazing board people make it out to be.

My (mostly minor) issues are:
1) The spacebar is pretty loud for a "silent" model, especially when activated with your right thumb at certain angles. It makes a sharper clicking noise. I expected better quality on the spacebar, backspace, and shift keys. I don't think there's any defects with this model, the larger keys are all fairly similar.

2) The spacebar felt a bit heavy/mushy. I've removed the spring from it and applied a very tiny amount of dry teflon lube to the two internal guides. This made it better, but it's also even louder now I'll re-install the spring later to try it again.

3) I touch-type most of the time, especially for normal dialog, but when writing code I'll sometimes start favouring my index and middle finger I'm not sure why I do this, but it makes the whole variable weight key thing a bit annoying. The uneven weighting becomes much more obvious.

4) The keyboard and keys feel way too tall for me. I sort of assumed it was similar in height to most rubber-dome models, oops. I think modern apple keyboards have ruined me. Do I really need a wrist wrest? that seems so 1990's.

Being honest, as is stands now I wouldn't rate the typing experience as being much better than a decent rubber-dome keyboard model.

I have used mechanical/traditional keyboards before. There was one with Cherry Brown switches I liked, I didn't notice the keys and keyboard height being so height. I feel like I need to carve a hole out of my desk to place this keyboard inside.

I was previously using a stock Apple wireless board (several years), your typical flat scissor-switch keys. I was fairly happy with this, but suffered from accuracy issues when typing quickly for longer stretches, probably due to such flat keys. Now I'm starting to question what sort of keyboard/switch I actually like. I read up on the Topre switches and other options for at least a month before making the jump, they sounded like a good match.

Perhaps I need something in-between? A lower profile keyboard with snappier short-travel keys? maybe.

I'm a bit concerned that I won't adapt, or at least not quickly enough for the Realforce to be practical. I'll give it my best shot. Your input/advice is appreciated.

If my wife sees me typing on the old Mac BT keyboard, I'll be in big trouble...

[002]

Hello fellow QLD'er Did you get affected by the floods at all?

1) Agreed but if you're comparing Topre's noise level to most other other mechanical boards, I think you'll find that overall the Topre has a smaller audible footprint.
2) Disagree. I love the feel of the spacebar on my Realforce - the only problem I had initially was that the edge was pretty sharp but I'm used to it now.
3) You can't have your cake and eat it too
4) This might be just because you're used to wafer thin Apple boards? Wrist rests can be cool but I don't think you're supposed to rest your wrists while you're typing anyway.

Overall it just sounds like you're quite comfortable with scissor switches. Some of the points you raised probably aren't going to be resolved by moving to another mechanical keyboard. Keep in mind that some people only realise that they like Realforce/Topre keyboards when they ditch them to go to something else

[Gilgam]

Just take time to adapt;
i switched from apple keybard to realforce first then cherry.
And i won't go back rellay.
Try it for at least two weeks.

if you you don't like it ou will be able to sell it quite easily.

[Trev]

Thanks for the comments guys.

Yep, QLD here. Mermaid Beach. We lost power for a day in those storms, nothing serious. It trashed my herb garden that had some good stuff growing (like Indonesian Chillies).

Back to the keyboard... Oddly enough, I started getting in to a much better flow with the kb later in the day after my first post. Perhaps I just need time. One thing is for certain, I'd definitely prefer evenly weighted keys. The variable weights really expose the fact that although I never look down at the keys, I'm not typing "correctly" much of the time. I'm not sure I can un-learn years of bad habits.

Now I have the urge to try more keyboards with different switches. What's wrong with me? I'm not typically a collector/accumulator of things. I'd like to try out the quiet ALPS switches in these Matias models, just for kicks:

[002]

I have 120 of each Matias switch type pre-ordered with 7bit. I'll send you a couple of each to try out if you like.

[Trev]

Yeah, that would be great. Happy to cover your postage and return them (of course).

I take it you haven't tried a Matias keyboard yet?

Cheers

[002]

Not yet - I'm not really keen on the Matias keyboard designs but I like Alps switches and I really want to put together a Hyper Micro or Mini with Matias switches.

[Trev]

Upgraded my chair, kb, mousepad... work is feeling much better now:) Better experience with the Realforce today too, even when typing with the wrong fingers.

The only ALPS I've used would be from the popular old Mac Extended keyboards (those were ALPS right?). I don't think I even liked the computers much, but the kb was very nice

What's your own experience like in regard to modern ALPS (Matias type) VS Topre? The Matias sound/look good in videos, at least. The sound reminds me of the old mac models.

[002]

The AEK II had Alps switches - http://deskthority.net/wiki/Apple_Extended_Keyboard_II

I have a couple of Alps/Alps clone keyboards; none of them modern. I like the Brown Alps switches from the PC Convertible the most, but there are many types that I have not tried. By the way it's a bit of a running joke here that the world of Alps and its myriad clones is a giant knot that isn't worth unravelling. We (actually mostly Daniel Beardsmore) are getting there though!

[rodtang]

The AEK II had Alps switches

So did the original AEK.

[Trev]

Are those the only two?

I don't actually know, but I do know that many of the era felt very similar.

[rodtang]

Are those the only two?

Well, there are a couple more, Apple IIGS for example and the adjustable had ALPS (awful, awful alps).

[Trev]

Haha... wow. You're right, that would've been the other one! Didn't even think of it. Perhaps the IIGS ALPS didn't feel as bad when they were brand new? (a somewhat common trend among Apple boards).

[vivalarevolución]

Are those the only two?

Well, there are a couple more, Apple IIGS for example and the adjustable had ALPS (awful, awful alps).

Which one do you think had awful Alps? The IIGS or Apple Adjustable?

Because I'm loving this Apple IIGS I got a couple weeks ago. Even if they are bad, I like them better than any Cherry board I've used.

[rodtang]

Which one do you think had awful Alps?

Apple Adjustable

[KangarooZombies]

Interesting post, gives me some pause though. I really do need to try out topre keys...

[Trev]

Interesting post, gives me some pause though. I really do need to try out topre keys...

Where are you located?

[Polymer]

It just takes time to get used to them...They are definitely a lot different than Cherry MX....For typing I don't know if there is anything better..I like Cherry switches but after using Topre, Cherry MX switches feel rather harsh...I prefer Cherry for gaming though..

Alps switches...Most old school keyboards used Alps...a large majority of the ones out there were Alps...You might've tried ones like the Focus 2001 which was very popular inexpensive clicky keyboard..that was Alps...The problem w/ Alps is, they weren't terribly reliable..at least not compared to Cherry...It certainly didn't help that you had mechanical switches going into 20 dollar keyboards...It probably wasn't cost effective to make them as well as mechanical keyboards are now..

The Matias ones are supposed to be greatly improved so I'm looking forward to getting one of those myself...

[calavera]

I had a similar experience but in my case I just needed to give it some time. Realforce kind of grows on you. It was a little underwhelming at first but the realforce has been my main keyboard for a good 3 years or so since then.

[Trev]

I'm going ok with the Topre switches... but, the variable weight is definitely the worst element of the experience (for me personally). I think the pinky keys feel overly light and mushy when hit with other fingers. If my attention drifts for a few seconds, i'll see qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq or 111111111111 scrolling by.

For someone who is a proper touch-typist, this would be a perfect arrangement. If you're only hitting these keys with your pinkies, it would feel very consistent and smooth.

I suppose the lesson learned here is that I may never look at the keys (I can't even read the labels here in anything less than daylight), but I'm not a correct typist for much of the time. I've simply used computers so often that I can "feel" a keyboard no matter what. I suspect more people my age who started on computers at age 4+ could be similar.

This board may not be the perfect match for me, but I definitely can't go back to the scissor switches. I gave it a shot and it felt horribly wrong. Very foreign and clumsy.

I'd still like to try a Matias. It was $370 total (shipped) for the Realforce, so... if a white keyboard shows up in the mail I'd be in trouble. It'll need to wait.

[Hypersphere]

Trev, I've been following your quest with great interest. About two years ago I switched from Windows to OS X as my primary OS, atlhough I also use Linux. I have been using an IBM Model M full-size keyboard for a long time. However, recently I decided I might want more room on my desk for the mouse and that it might be more comfortable to place the mouse closer to center. Consequently, I started looking for tenkeyless keyboards and consulting Deskthority and Geekhack for advice. Now I have a disease: I cannot stop reading reviews and commentaries about keyboards. What's worse, I cannot stop buying keyboards to try. The only thing slowing me down is my wife, who handles the family finances.

In any event, I have tried such boards as the Filco MJ2 TKL "Ninja" with Cherry Blue switches, replacing the cheap keycaps with the Olivetti set from Originative. Among today's modern mechanical keyboards, the Filco is highly rated, but with all due respect it feels like a toy compared to the Model M.

I keep coming back to reviews of the HHKB Pro 2 and I feel that I will not be able to rest until I try it, but then I ask myself, "Why?" Although I like the form factor, I think learning the alien layout would be an unnecessary burden. When I saw that you had put your HHKB aside and had taken up the RF, I thought perhaps this was the answer. Now I find that you were underwhelmed, as I was with the Filco.

A light is dawning in my mind. A little voice is urging me to remember, "There's no place like home". I am beginning to realize that I had the best keyboard all along -- my trusty Model M. It might be nice if it were smaller, but everything else is quite right. There is a surefooted feeling with the IBM that I do not get with any other board I have tried. Its mechanics are loud, but I work alone and have no one else to disturb. To me, the buckling springs emit reassuring music. Everything feels solid and enduring, and I have the satisfaction of knowing I am doing my work on a unique and venerated machine.

If you have not tried an IBM Model M and have the opportunity to acquire one, I would urge you to give it a try.

[Trev]

No keyboard is going to be perfect, but for me the RF is the best overall (by a long shot). It's certainly standing the test of time for real work. I smash on this thing all day long. I'm down to two keyboards: the RF and my Ergo-clears KBT Pure project. While the clears are actually quite good, they're still in a different league next to RF. The spacebar on RF is definitely a weakness for Topre, it's not of the same quality level as the rest of the keyboard due to noise and ABS vs PBT.

If a 60% model with the same qualities as the RF silent existed, I'd definitely try it.

Typing on the HHKB2 is not the same as an RF. It feels different, sounds different, key travel's shorter (on Type-S). Layout was a non-issue for the most part. I actually liked the backspace position enough that it's now my standard for the RF too

FN-arrows seem unnecessary given that other 60% layouts manage to squeeze them in. They weren't hard to use, but definitely a compromise without real benefit, IMO. They keep your fingers closer to home row, but they also complicate navigation and various key combos. 1 step forward, 2 steps back sort of thing.

A model-M is totally out of the question for me due to the noise. I'm a huge fan of tactile feedback, but have no need for audible feedback on that sort of level. Realforce silent is the loudest I'd prefer a keyboard to be.

I _still_ scan the forums. The sickness never completely goes away, it's more like a virus that can at best, lie dormant for short stretches.

[Muirium]

I _still_ scan the forums. The sickness never completely goes away, it's more like a virus that can at best, lie dormant for short stretches.

Ain't that the truth!

This thread is a perfect capsule of the Topre experience. Initial impressions: its okay, but what were all you guys on about? End result: your main keyboard! Makes me wonder what cunning it took for the guys inside Topre to ever sell the idea of their switch to anyone. It's a great feel, that makes you go "meh" at first but persevere and then you'll really like it! A challenging sales pitch. But it worked.

RJ, I'm still keen to know what you think it is about the Filco that puts you off. Is it the blues? Is it the lightness of the whole thing? Because comparing to a Model M is tough stuff. Could be that any keyboard without the IBM's physical sense of presence will feel lacking to you. That would spell trouble for the plastic plated little HHKB. Or maybe it is all about the switches. Blues get raves from many, but as a clicky switch they're nothing like buckling spring. The movement is all wrong. And the sound! I like them both, but they are not alike.

There are a few options for smaller format buckling springs. Expensive SSKs, home made SSKs and 60%s! And here's my IBM PC XT Model F. Only got it working on USB a couple of days ago thanks to Soarer! What's small about this beast? Well, there's no arrow keys, and home row is more or less centred on the keyboard thanks to some thoroughly old school symmetry! I'm still working on my remapping, via Teensy.

Topre might well work for you, because it is so purposefully different. And you can still make a melodious racket if you bottom out with emphasis. But be prepared for a furrowed brow and "I spent how much for this?" moment the first few days. Doubly so if your money lady catches wind of it!

[Hypersphere]

No keyboard is going to be perfect, but for me the RF is the best overall (by a long shot). ...
...The spacebar on RF is definitely a weakness for Topre, it's not of the same quality level as the rest of the keyboard due to noise and ABS vs PBT.

If a 60% model with the same qualities as the RF silent existed, I'd definitely try it.

Typing on the HHKB2 is not the same as an RF. It feels different, sounds different, key travel's shorter (on Type-S). Layout was a non-issue for the most part. I actually liked the backspace position enough that it's now my standard for the RF too

FN-arrows seem unnecessary given that other 60% layouts manage to squeeze them in. ...

A model-M is totally out of the question for me due to the noise. I'm a huge fan of tactile feedback, but have no need for audible feedback on that sort of level. Realforce silent is the loudest I'd prefer a keyboard to be.

I _still_ scan the forums. The sickness never completely goes away, it's more like a virus that can at best, lie dormant for short stretches.

Trev, Thanks for the reply. I would also like to see something like a 60% RF with arrow keys. Perhaps this is the Leopold FC660C?

It is unfortunate that the Model M is too noisy for you. For me this is still the "One True Keyboard". I use a full-size Model M. I would like to try a Space Saving model. Although the noise level if fine for me, perhaps some silencing could be introduced; if this could be done without sacrificing the excellent action and feel of the keyboard, it would be ideal.

Yes, I am also still scanning the forums and the internet in general in my continued quest. However, I am still in the acute active phase of the illness. I wonder if it will simmer down to a dormant state; even so, I doubt it will disappear completely.

[Hypersphere]

I _still_ scan the forums. The sickness never completely goes away, it's more like a virus that can at best, lie dormant for short stretches.

...

RJ, I'm still keen to know what you think it is about the Filco that puts you off. Is it the blues? Is it the lightness of the whole thing? Because comparing to a Model M is tough stuff. Could be that any keyboard without the IBM's physical sense of presence will feel lacking to you. That would spell trouble for the plastic plated little HHKB. Or maybe it is all about the switches. Blues get raves from many, but as a clicky switch they're nothing like buckling spring. The movement is all wrong. And the sound! I like them both, but they are not alike.

There are a few options for smaller format buckling springs. ...

Topre might well work for you, ...

Mu, Thanks for your comments. Regarding the Filco, I think your interpretation is apt. It is not so much the intrinsic properties of the Filco per se, but the comparison with something as monumental as the Model M. It is a bit like comparing a book and a movie supposedly based on the book. People complain that the movie was "nothing like the book". Sometimes I feel that way, but then I realize that in many cases, the book and the movie were great experiences -- they were just different experiences.

Again, regarding the Filco, I thoroughly enjoyed dressing it up in its new keycaps (classic beige/white with Italian blue from Originative), and I could be reasonably happy typing on it if it weren't for the existence of the Model M. It does not have the feeling of permanence that the Model M has; it feels more delicate. On the other hand, I am confident that the Model M will outlast me by far.

Thanks for the options for a smaller IBM. I think the only one that would work for me is the IBM Model M Space Saving (84-key) variant. This is essentially the "tenkeyless" variety of the Model M. It preserves everything but the number pad, but even that is included in a function layer activated by Num Lock.

IBM Notwithstanding, Topre still beckons. Topre has managed to create a mystique. Boards with Topre switches are relatively uncommon and they are expensive. There is a cache associated with HHBK and RF arising from various factors, including the form factor and arcane layout of the HHBK and the understated elegance of the RF. These attributes combine to make us feel we really ought to be using Topres if only we could somehow afford them.

Several things are holding me back from trying a HHBK Pro 2 and/or a RF(87u): (1) Unfamiliar layout of the HHBK and the suspicion that TKL is as small as I should go for practical day to day work; (2) unattractive form factor of the RF -- it might as well look different from the IBM and be less deep; they could cut off the top bezel and perhaps reduce the distance between the Function key row and the rest of the board; (3) high prices; (4) uncertainly about options for key weights and silenced vs regular models; (5) scarcity of replacement keycaps; (6) colors -- I would prefer a black case with white/gray keycaps, but this combination would require an expensive keycap transplant; (7) I expect to be disappointed, especially in comparison to the Model M, and selling a used keyboard is a hassle and probably a financial loss; (8) HHBK Pro 2 and RF 87u have been out for a long time -- I fear that they will introduce new models shortly after my purchase that I might like better (the usual conundrum when buying any technology).

[Hypersphere]

.... I'd like to try out the quiet ALPS switches in these Matias models, just for kicks:

Trev, The Matias boards, the Mini Quiet Pro and the Mini Tactile Pro, caught my attention as well. I think the layouts are brilliant, capturing many of the attributes many of us are seeking in a compact keyboard. However, I do not see many comments about Matias boards on the Forums, and I have seen elsewhere on the internet indications of problems with the company and its products. In addition, I do not like the appearance of these boards. They could improve the aesthetics by cutting off the top bezel and making the whole thing more rectilinear and less rounded. As it is, the boards look cartoonish, like Fisher Price toys. It would also be nice if Matias would make a Mac version of the Mini Quiet Pro and/or a black version of the Mini Tactile Pro, and perhaps use a two-tone color design for the keycaps rather than monochrome.

[Muirium]

Fortunately, Trev did try it and wrote up about his Matias here. Further Trev chronicles, where he fell in love with an HHKB, then finally went full circle, lie here.

He's a fussy bugger, in a good way. That's why I remembered. Go read!

[RC-1140]

I can totally understand your remarks about the variable weight of the Realforce. When I tried the Realforce from 002 I had a similar experience. To me the problem wasn't only the different weight, but also the different feeling of the switches. The light switches felt much more "mushy" than the heavier switches. Now, typing on my FC660C feels fantastic. I still prefer Model Ms though. I would recommend you to try a Model M one day. The audible feedback might drive you away at first, but you get used to it quickly and even start to enjoy it. Just try to get a used one somewhere, I doubt you'll resent it.

[Muirium]

002's Realforce will be a fascinating experiment for me when I get a turn with it, too. It's going head to head with my Model F!

RJ's got a Model M, which seems to have spoiled him forever. Trev might well be the odd one out. I somehow don't see him, buckling springs and sanity coexisting in the same room.

[matt3o]

wanna visit Florence? I'll have you try a realforce and some wonderful T-Bone steak