My "new" IBM XT -- Early Impressions

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Muirium
µ

25 May 2015, 02:52

Chyros wrote:
Muirium wrote: My hunch is the larger the keyboard, the looser the overall tolerances will be for the same build quality. The Unsaver's still a large keyboard. But potentially a bit tighter built than its full battleship brothers.

I'm tempted to start calling Unsavers "Battlecruisers". The 62 key Kishsaver, meanwhile, is either a Pocket Battleship or a Destroyer.
When people refer to "battleships", are they generally referring to 122 layout boards then?
Usually. Sometimes someone might come along and call any regular Model M a "battleship", but that's just because they've never seen a 122 key. Those really put the 101 keys to shame for size.

Amusingly, we are not alone with these naval terms. The original codenames inside Apple for the Apple Extended Keyboard and its successor, the Apple Extended Keyboard II, were aircraft carriers! Though neither board is really as big, let alone weighty, as all that. A Model M outdoes an AEK.

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Chyros

25 May 2015, 03:30

Muirium wrote:
Chyros wrote:
Muirium wrote: My hunch is the larger the keyboard, the looser the overall tolerances will be for the same build quality. The Unsaver's still a large keyboard. But potentially a bit tighter built than its full battleship brothers.

I'm tempted to start calling Unsavers "Battlecruisers". The 62 key Kishsaver, meanwhile, is either a Pocket Battleship or a Destroyer.
When people refer to "battleships", are they generally referring to 122 layout boards then?
Usually. Sometimes someone might come along and call any regular Model M a "battleship", but that's just because they've never seen a 122 key. Those really put the 101 keys to shame for size.
Yeah, see, that's what confused me. Makes much more sense to call 122s battleships anyway, the Model M is big but it's still just a 101 key, it's not THAT gargantuan Oo .

Sigmoid

27 May 2015, 16:57

Muirium wrote: Not been inside of mine, but I hear the space bar is tricky and can be damaged unless you know what you're doing first. There are guides here and at GH, I remember seeing them last year. But mine is pretty clean and I let it be.
Nothing tricky about the spacebar, you just need to know what you are doing (which is nothing overly complicated actually).

Here's the thing about the Model F (at least the XT) space bar. They cannot be removed or inserted from the top. You have to take the plate off, and unhinge the stabilizer (a long spring wire) from the backside to remove it.

Similarly, when re-assembling the keyboard, unlike other keys you have to insert the space bar and attach the stabilizer before putting the plate back on the pcb assembly. If it doesn't feel right, you have inserted the spring upside down (unhinge it, flip it over, reinsert it, done).

I have seen some WEIRD tricks aimed at keeping the flipper flush while reassembling the keyboard, but in my experience, no such weird-ass wizardry is needed at all. You just hold the plate upside down on the top of an open box, and place the PCB gently on it. You then push the space bar a few times to see if there is a click. If there is none, you take the PCB off, check if the flipper is sitting right, and do it again. When it clicks, you're done, and you can get your clamps and mallet to slide the plate in place.
Muirium wrote: In my book, Topres feel higher quality in the hand than Model F or Model Ms. But it's certainly not weight that does it. Subjective!
That's like saying that Lindt swiss chocolate is higher quality than USDA prime angus steak. It's absurd.

Yes, some people like chocolate better, and others steak, but quality has nothing to do with that.

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Spikebolt
√(4) != -2

27 May 2015, 18:36

I've always been intrigued by the layout of this keyboard. Strongly dislike the stepped keys, though.

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Muirium
µ

27 May 2015, 19:36

Stepped caps are fine, if defiantly old timey. But just you try that weird bugger of a layout. In fact, consider it your punishment! IBM certainly did.

@Sigmoid: Like I said: tricky spacebar! The one on my AT absolutely required the floss knot trick to seat when reassembling. I tried many times. Silly choice on IBM's part to trap them like that. Someone else brought up build quality, thus the muddy, muddy waters of incoherent illogical comparisons. I tell it like I feel it. Which is all there is, beyond reason's reach.

Sigmoid

27 May 2015, 21:39

Muirium wrote: @Sigmoid: Like I said: tricky spacebar! The one on my AT absolutely required the floss knot trick to seat when reassembling.
Hm... I managed to get by placing the PCB down in the right angle, pushing the flipper into its position. I wonder if the XTs are easier to assemble, or it's just a question of luck.
Muirium wrote: Someone else brought up build quality, thus the muddy, muddy waters of incoherent illogical comparisons. I tell it like I feel it. Which is all there is, beyond reason's reach.
I think I understand where you are coming from. Topre is usually described as "luxurious", which IBMs most definitely aren't. They are heavy, rude and industrial - which is what I like about them. It's also almost certain that a Model F that is 30 years old now will be a keyboard long after the rubber sheet of a Topre fresh off the conveyor belt today has decomposed.

It's like Topre is a fancy Tesla, and Model F is a huge CAT mining truck. ;)

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Muirium
µ

27 May 2015, 21:55

The XT could be different to the AT; I've never taken my XT apart. The spring just wouldn't let the flipper lie right whenever I closed my AT. I could get the plates together, and one time I even got the spacebar to click, but the damn thing just wouldn't register on the controller.

As for Topre vs. IBM: I love 'em both. My Kishsaver is the equal of anything ever made in cold hard metal. (I'd say steel for cliché's sake, but I think I heard it was something else.) While my Realforce feels better finished than any SSK, even my NIB. They're different, aye, up to separate things. But I reckon they'll all work fine in 50 years, and likely many more. Topre's been making these boards a long, long time as well. The domes are the weak point, but I've heard of ancient Topres with excellent feel even so. They won't last forever, but they're in the running for as long as you or I will be around to use them!

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chzel

27 May 2015, 22:19

Muirium wrote: The XT could be different to the AT; I've never taken my XT apart. The spring just wouldn't let the flipper lie right whenever I closed my AT. I could get the plates together, and one time I even got the spacebar to click, but the damn thing just wouldn't register on the controller.
The XT and the AT share the same problem.
I managed to break a flipper on my AT trying to close the bugger!
I'm in the middle of a restoration marathon the last couple of days to keep my mind occupied
I have an SSK, an XT and an AT in various stages of work, so if anyone wants a comparison let me know!

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Muirium
µ

27 May 2015, 23:04

Oh noes! Do you want a pointer toward the floss trick? (Not to be confused with the floss mod, naturally…)

Found it:

http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/mode ... t6982.html

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chzel

27 May 2015, 23:07

Thanks, I was already trying the floss when I broke it!
It broke clean, so I superglued it back and it holds up fine. It will go on a corner that will not see too much flipping!

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Ander

03 Jun 2015, 10:53

Hypersphere wrote:The layout is a bit foreign after using standard ANSI and HHKB layouts. However, the Control key is already in the right place -- just to the left of the "a" key....
Huh? Maybe if you'd been using an AT, or another XT—but otherwise, wouldn't the "right place" be the lower L corner?
Muirium wrote:Massive 122 key layouts work for some folks, but not for me. A 122 key Model F would be a fine step up over my Model M, but the sheer size of them, and the asymmetry is just… yikes!
Aw, where's your sense of adventure? IMHO, the quirks of 122s are more than compensated for by the dumbfounded looks you get when people walk into your work space and see them on your desk. :?)
Mu wrote:Beam springs aren't the most compact layouts either, and they are notoriously tall thanks to the sheer depth of their mechanism – Model Fs were advertised as "low profile" once upon a time – but most of them are real lookers...
Sure, but where can normal people like us ever find one for less than several hundred bucks? Any clues will be appreciated. :?)
Hypersphere wrote:Thanks for the suggestions. I am a bit confused by the nomenclature of some of IBM's keyboards. I thought that the 122-key IBM was also dubbed a "Model M" (?).
Mu wrote:122 keys came in both Model F and Model M variants. Unlike the smaller form factors, that layout lived on during IBM's transition to the second generation of buckling spring. F refers to "flip plate" (or capacitative buckling spring), and M means membrane: they simply define the mechanism. The layout is an independent variable.
I think what Mu meant was: There are 122-key Model F's and 122-key Model M's. (If you don't know how F's and M's are different, Wikipedia's Model M Keyboard and Model F Keyboard pages will help.)

BTW, how did this drift into a discussion of the glories of beamsprings? It seems a bit antisocial to wander away so easily from the OP's enthusiasm about their XT, doesn't it?

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seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

03 Jun 2015, 10:56

Ander wrote: BTW, how did this drift into a discussion of the glories of beamsprings? It seems a bit antisocial to wander away so easily from the OP's enthusiasm about their XT, doesn't it?
you`ve been around DT Ander, going offtopic in our threads is normal and not looked down upon at all. ;) Antisocial? Nah, come on. Slightly rude towards OP. A bit, yes.

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Ander

03 Jun 2015, 12:03

seebart wrote:
Ander wrote: you`ve been around DT Ander, going offtopic in our threads is normal and not looked down upon at all. ;) ...
Except when I do it, apparently, LOL.

Okay, fair enough, as long as the OP realizes it's no dis to his XT. (Personally, I think Model F's are awesome—and I've never gotten close enough to a beamspring to have any real ideas about 'em.)

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Hypersphere

03 Jun 2015, 17:34

I don't mind drifting off topic at all. It's actually quite fun to have a post stimulate wide-ranging discussion that goes off in a multitude of tangents!

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seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

03 Jun 2015, 17:39

there's no dissing here Ander, at least not in this thread. I guess it could be considered rude in a way of changing the subject.

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Muirium
µ

03 Jun 2015, 17:48

We should really have an etiquette thread so we can talk about keyboards.

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chzel

03 Jun 2015, 17:50

You mean talk keyboards IN the etiquette thread right?

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Muirium
µ

03 Jun 2015, 17:50

Bingo!

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fohat
Elder Messenger

03 Jun 2015, 23:58

Sigmoid wrote:
Topre is usually described as "luxurious", which IBMs most definitely aren't.

They are heavy, rude and industrial - which is what I like about them.

It's like Topre is a fancy Tesla, and Model F is a huge CAT mining truck.
I must take issue with these statements.

"Luxurious" is certainly an adjective that I would use for a Model F, because it is both effortless and solid. [not so the Model M]

And "rude" is a term that I would never use for an IBM, and particularly not a Model F [the Model M is a drastically cheapened knock-off]

If you had said "old-fashioned" then I would agree completely, but "svelte" or "modern" or "lightweight" are not always improvements.

Just because I am typing this on a key board dated 13 AUG 1984, weighing 8.25 lb/3.75 kg, does not mean that I am a Luddite or that it is crude. On the contrary, I would argue that this is a carefully-engineered and finely-crafted piece of precision machinery, easily the equal of a Topre on any level of comparison. And a century-old steam locomotive (which may well still be running) may be "primitive" but it is not "crude" by any means.

Consider clothing. I prefer natural fabrics, with cotton being my favorite fabric in most cases, along with silk and wool. I love silk shirts but hate silk underwear. And even in the heat of summer, "lightweight wool" can be a comfortable and desirable fabric. The evaluation of an item is in its utility, not its appearance.

If the Topre is a 2015 Telsa, the Model F is a 1984 Rolls-Royce Phantom. Which one is "better"?

Sigmoid

25 Jun 2015, 22:05

fohat wrote: I must take issue with these statements.

...

Just because I am typing this on a key board dated 13 AUG 1984, weighing 8.25 lb/3.75 kg, does not mean that I am a Luddite or that it is crude. On the contrary, I would argue that this is a carefully-engineered and finely-crafted piece of precision machinery, easily the equal of a Topre on any level of comparison. And a century-old steam locomotive (which may well still be running) may be "primitive" but it is not "crude" by any means.

Consider clothing. I prefer natural fabrics, with cotton being my favorite fabric in most cases, along with silk and wool. I love silk shirts but hate silk underwear. And even in the heat of summer, "lightweight wool" can be a comfortable and desirable fabric. The evaluation of an item is in its utility, not its appearance.

If the Topre is a 2015 Telsa, the Model F is a 1984 Rolls-Royce Phantom. Which one is "better"?
:) I guess that's a valid viewpoint too.

I love the feel of Model F, and "industrial and rude" was never meant as an insult. I mean, my favorite notebooks are Thinkpads, and they look like the bloody monolith from Space Odyssey. Most people I know hate them for being "ugly" and "industrial". I once heard them being likened to an "imperial walker". xD

I think there is a growing divide between consumer and industrial / professional technology, with industrial meaning, usually, simplicity, serviceability, and functionality dictating design. In the consumer space, these days we see an inverse tendency, with design dictating functionality, a lack of both simplicity AND serviceability, lots of pointless details and features, and hot glue instead of screws.

CAT trucks are a pinnacle of beauty in terms of vehicle engineering. :)
Muirium wrote: The XT could be different to the AT; I've never taken my XT apart. The spring just wouldn't let the flipper lie right whenever I closed my AT. I could get the plates together, and one time I even got the spacebar to click, but the damn thing just wouldn't register on the controller.
chzel wrote: Thanks, I was already trying the floss when I broke it!
It broke clean, so I superglued it back and it holds up fine. It will go on a corner that will not see too much flipping!
Something tells me I should do a tutorial video on this. I re-assembled another Model F yesterday, again without floss, and got the spacebar clicking in one try. AGAIN.

Yes, the flipper will NOT sit flush when you assemble it.

What I do is use an iPad box to hold the plate - it is just the right size so you can arrange it in a way that doesn't push on any of the barrels. Then, with all the flippers in place (and the spacebar one not sitting flush), I take the PCB and the backplate (assembled), touch it to the bottom of the top plate, and "close it" on like a door or the shell of a clam. If I don't feel any weird bumpiness, and the thing seems to sit flush, then I press it together with my hands, and try clicking the spacebar. It will usually click. If it doesn't lay flush, or doesn't click, I open it, fix the orientation of any flippers (esp. the spacebar one), and do it again, until it works. So far it had always worked almost on the first try.

Then I take my clamps and clamp the thing together, and close it up with a mallet and some wooden blocks.

Check the spacebar click regularly before moving on to the next thing, until the thing is closed up for good. The trick is, NEVER FORCE anything (except the bloody foam and plate, when you put the clamps on, but by then you're as good as done).

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y11971alex

15 Jun 2016, 19:11

seebart wrote: I dont`find it that horrible!
Sorry for the dig.

I actually found it surprisingly usable, and definitely not as horrible as it initially looks. That impression is probably engendered by my primary use of the board, though, which is typing. I am in the habit of using the numpad for navigation anyway, since the arrows more closely situated to the PgUp buttons & company. On average, I think, my XT has a resonance that is about a major second to major third higher than the AT, and the XT also has the advantage of being slightly shorter than the AT.

After typing for a few days with a 3101 beamspring, I am starting to buy into IBM's idea that the Model F was ergonomic. My fingers are very happy, but my wrists are complaining.

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Hypersphere

15 Jun 2016, 19:28

@y11971alex: I prefer the sound and feel of my XT to that of my AT. And much of the layout is quite usable. I especially appreciate the abundance of keys on the bottom row that can be remapped as modifiers. The only issue I have with the XT layout is the Enter and Backspace. I prefer a standard ANSI Enter, and I like to have a 1.25x key directly above the Enter for my Backspace key (as on the HHKB). Further modifications of the XT (and AT) are on my very long (and long-neglected) "to do" list.

My typing comfort on the XT is at least as good and perhaps better than on any of my keyboards. If you are having wrist discomfort, this might be due to your hand-wrist angle, which ideally should be straight rather than bent.

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seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

15 Jun 2016, 19:40

Agreed with both of you Hyper and y11971alex! While the XT very much takes some getting used to the only thing that really bothers me are the stepped keycaps. With softmapping I can very much use it as a daily driver, the overall feel is superb, while the AT is more accessible the superior build quality of the XT is more satisfactory to me overall. Looks better too. Of all the Model F's I own I'd say the XT is easily the sturdiest. I've never tried a keycap mod but several users here have do so quite successfully.

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Hypersphere

15 Jun 2016, 23:07

Here is one version of remapping (HHKB-like) and changing some keycaps on my XT:
XT_left325.jpg
XT_left325.jpg (81.8 KiB) Viewed 4986 times
XT Left Side: Red = Ctrl; Dark Blue = Opt/Alt
XT_Right325.jpg
XT_Right325.jpg (258.69 KiB) Viewed 4986 times
XT Right Side: Red = Ctrl; Dark Blue = Opt/Alt; Green = Enter/Return; Blank Tan = Backspace

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seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

15 Jun 2016, 23:22

Yeah I need to try a setup like that sometime. Nice.

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Hypersphere

16 Jun 2016, 00:35

@seebart: It's not optimal by any means, but it takes care of the stepped keys in the main typing area. The gaps don't look as glaring in real life as they do in the pics. I don't mind having stepped keys in the num pad area.

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y11971alex

16 Jun 2016, 01:25

Hypersphere wrote: @seebart: It's not optimal by any means, but it takes care of the stepped keys in the main typing area. The gaps don't look as glaring in real life as they do in the pics. I don't mind having stepped keys in the num pad area.
That plus key is pretty special though. Who would need a three-unit tall plus key that can only be hit in the centre?

IBM was feeling generous enough to provide a very premium construction but not stabilizers. :shock:

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LewisR

16 Jun 2016, 02:06

That plus key is pretty funny! I keep having to remember that it's NOT the enter key. I've had my XT for a couple of weeks now and the main thing that bothers me isn't even the layout. What bothers me is the super stiff spacebar. It really detracts from the great feel of the rest of the keys having to slam on the spacebar. I may try to mod it, but I'm not really ready to take it apart.

Other than that though, I really love it! I got it for around $60 plus shipping, and after cleaning it up, it looks like it's almost new. I don't think it was used that much. The cord's coils are still tight as well. It's definitely one of the best computer related purchases I made, and brings me closer to that feel I had when I'd play around on my dad's Selectrics when I was a kid. I love just typing all sorts of random things on it. It's a nice form of relaxation (despite the spacebar issue).

UnFocused

16 Jun 2016, 03:55

Regarding the layouts on the these keyboards, I posted this elsewhere yesterday...

I've kept a good many computer magazines that I bought in the 80s & 90s. I was flipping through the March 1984 edition of Popular Computer (on this cover is: Introducing Apple's newest technology in a personal package... Macintosh) and found an article about the IBM PCjr. Buried in this article is this blurb about IBM's keyboards.

Image

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LewisR

16 Jun 2016, 07:01

\that's pretty funny! <----- see what I accidentally did there! (no joke)

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